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Espresso: Espresso Machines
Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Upgrading from...

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BubbaDude
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Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 493
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB

Posted Sun Feb 12, 2012, 3:35am Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

I don't have a Giotto and I've never used one, so I wouldn't consider myself qualified to comment on it beyond its general characteristics and the things I've read about it. I own a BDB, I've studied the design of the BDB and discussed it with the design team, I've used it, and I've shared experiences with other BDB users since the First Look thread was created here at CG. So I'm qualified to comment on the BDB in specific, which is what I've done. Since I posted a partial list of the BDB's features, I've been waiting for someone equally knowledgeable about the Giotto to post the corresponding list for that machine, but it hasn't been forthcoming. Instead, there's just been a lot of handwaving and sentimentality about tradition. When someone's willing to have a substantial point-by-point discussion, I'm game, but all of this uninformed speculation isn't worthwhile. We had a long discussion about predicting reliability and serviceability on the First Look and there's no point in recapping it as it wasn't particularly helpful. It's my opinion, based on study and experience, that the BDB aspires to be a revolutionary device that advances the state of the art in its price class (and substantially beyond) and that it may very well have achieved its goal. It's still too soon to say with certainty, but that condition won't last forever and the signs presently point to yes. The best you can say about the ECM machines is that they're attractive, competent examples of kitchen appliance design and traditional Italian espresso machine engineering. To be honest, ECM's are dated even by Italian standards, but they're substantially less expensive than Italian dual boilers such as the La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II, the Izzo D2, and the VBM Domobar Super, so they're acceptable to highly skilled and dedicated hobbyists on a budget. But that's not really an informed opinion. It's valid to compare the BDB to other dual boilers, but it seems clear that it's head and shoulders above all of the HX and SBDU machines. I don't think there's even a rational argument to be had there other than "de gustibus non est disputandum" and "as long as you keep replacing parts it will keep on working about as well as it ever did." I wouldn't recommend that a newbie should buy one at this point because he'll spend six months to a year learning how to use it while the BDB user will be pulling excellent shots in a week.

"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince

saoye1
Senior Member

Joined: 4 Feb 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Australia
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Giotto Premium/Lelit...
Grinder: Bezzera Obel DSQ modified

Posted Sun Feb 12, 2012, 5:31am
Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

BubbaDude Said:

Since I posted a partial list of the BDB's features, I've been waiting for someone equally knowledgeable about the Giotto to post the corresponding list for that machine, but it hasn't been forthcoming. Instead, there's just been a lot of handwaving and sentimentality about tradition.

Posted February 12, 2012 link

Again, no one has questioned the technology of the machine. Going back to the car analogy by your argument the manual car is outdated and superseded by the auto or semi-auto, yet you have enthusiasts who thinks the auto shift boring and so too here regarding your list. Part of the passion for some enthusiasts is the fact that we know our machine and "drive IT" so to speak not have the machine "drive US".

If you want what is in the Giotto specifically from your list then obviously most if not all of the BDB User assist electronics are not there (on the Giotto premium anyway). Does that in your opinion mean they are not as good? I won't mention the basic prosumer components already listed in your list including manual pre-infusion (other than the E61 grouphead) but there are obvious mechanical properties that exceed the BDB. For instance 1.1mm thick austenitic 300 series stainless steel body (chromed), Mostly all brass fittings including the boiler and again chromed. The BDB weighs 15kg, the Giotto weighs 21kg. I work in the Appliance Manufacturing industry (specifically Ovens), and I know every year our products weighs less and less to the point that we need counter weights to ensure safety and balance. It is not a marketing ploy to make our machines weigh less, it is because we are down gauging steel, replacing components with lesser components and sourcing to low cost countries just to survive in the market place, the same consumer market that Breville competes in that are extremely cost conscious.

BubbaDude Said:

I don't think there's even a rational argument to be had there other than "de gustibus non est disputandum" and "as long as you keep replacing parts it will keep on working about as well as it ever did." I wouldn't recommend that a newbie should buy one at this point because he'll spend six months to a year learning how to use it while the BDB user will be pulling excellent shots in a week.

Posted February 12, 2012 link

Admiring your writer's muscle flexing and ability to turn on the Latin but going past that I think again there is a market for the novice and then there's the market for the capable enthusiast (and sometimes these overlap). Glad we agree on this point. If you have a fully automatic machine at a press of a button giving you the same shot as the BDB I think you'll have plenty of the consumer market handing over their money to get one. I might get one myself, but I would still like a manual machine that I can manipulate, modify, tweak, fail at times, but knowing that I made the shot and that I can get as close to a perfect cup but still improve and discover new ways to hone my skills. I also know that I can pass it on to the next person to do the same and that's a good feeling. (Yes more "handwaving and sentimentality about tradition") and unashamedly so! :)

Lastly, the BDB will far outsell the Giotto Premium this year solely because of its target market and it's fit for purpose. Why are you worried? :)

Stuart
Senior Member

Joined: 9 Feb 2012
Posts: 113
Location: TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Roaster: Air Crazy popper

Posted Sun Feb 12, 2012, 8:21am Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

At Minimum Advertised Price, the Giotto is a full third more costly than the BDB (in the US at least). That's another factor. The OP noted that this question even came up because he had (might have had) an opportunity to pick up a Rocket Giotto Premium for the same cost as the BDB. Adding another $600 to the equation makes it a completely different discussion. At around the $1200 price point, new E61 machines include the Fiorenzato Bricoletta, which has a few features that distinguish it from the Giotto. As for self-driving v. being driven: the BDB can be operated in "manual" mode. One can start and stop a shot at the touch of a button (rather than the lift of a lever). You can set the target brew temperature in 1 degree increments, rather than timing the length of your cooling flush and delay between flushing and pulling a shot. As some have pointed out, with the BDB you can play with pressure profiling (of a sort) by bleeding off hot water at the same time you're pulling a shot. It's not apparent to me that you'd be able to do with with most HX machines. (This, for me, is an absolutely theoretical benefit -- I need much more practice before I could begin to be sure that such tomfoolery was responsible for any difference in the cup, and not my dose, distribution or tamp.) I believe one could argue that the user has as much or more control over the extraction process with the BDB than with the Rocket. (one could also argue that a PID'd Silvia offers more control over extraction temperature than a Rocket. But I don't think I've seen many people suggest that the PID'd Silvia will consistently pull a better shot.)

JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member

Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,100
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...

Posted Sun Feb 12, 2012, 10:23am Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

JonR10 Said: When we read posts indicating "WIDE-SPREAD PANIC!!" it is indeed laughable. Posted February 11, 2012 link +1 (if not 1,000) Richard, if you read -- I mean truly read -- what others have written (including myself), you will see that no one is threatened, no one is panicked . . . There is a long-established "tradition" among consumers who have recently purchased "high-ticket" items to (metaphorically) jump-up-and-down and proclaim their new device as the best thing since sliced bread. This is true whether someone purchases a new car, a new espresso machine, or a new weapons system that the Army says it doesn't need (but Congress will rave about, and fund regardless). No one on this site has ever said hey, that new Breville BES900XL Dual Boiler Espresso Machine is a piece of $#!+. Everyone who has expressed criticism and caution has, instead, said Historically, Breville is a company with a long history of consumer-related problems, at least here in the US. Historically, Breville has made (relatively) disposable espresso machines that break down and all-too-frequently get returned for a refund. The new Breville Dual Boiler machine looks promising, with some very attractive features. If it works, if the company has turned things around vis-a-vis quality and customer service, this could be a real game-changer. We skeptics have all voiced hopefulness in this regard, but feel that caution is advised until things "shake out," and time has passed with this machine getting some real-world performance under its proverbial belt. Now, how anyone can argue with that, or see "panic" in caution, is beyond me . . . *unless* they own the machine and think it's the best thing since sliced bread. BubbaDude Said: I'm an engineer, so I don't value "classic-ness." Posted February 11, 2012 link Ah, what a shame . . . Many engineers DO value "classic-ness," including people at LLL and Sandia. Does that mean that everything MUST be classic and should never be tinkered with, re-designed, improved upon? Obviously not, as we'd all still be riding in horse-drawn carriages and the manufacturers of buggy whips would still be thriving. But there are an awful lot of engineers who, in their own time, own and/or restore classic cars, for example; or who sell their relatively-new dual boiler for a classic E61 machine; or who . . . . Virtually the only one I have seen in these long-winded, winding, and twisted discussions about Breville who seems to be getting their undies in a knot is you -- be it with deliberately provocative tag lines, or rising to defend that which doesn't need defending, and so forth. It's a shame, really, as you probably have many things to contribute of a positive nature to this site, instead of either trolling for controversy or intentionally being an agent provocateur* of sorts. There is a HUGE difference, Richard, between fact and opinion. I wouldn't have thought so, but perhaps former Liberal Arts majors are better at recognizing that than former Engineering majors. And when it comes to the BDB and its potential as a game-changer in the consumer market -- based upon past experience and performance with Breville -- I prefer to rely on that Russian proverb so often quoted by the late Ronald Reagan, "Trust, but verify." Cheers, Jason * Yes, JonR, I fell for it; again, you have my apologies. ;^)

A morning without coffee is sleep . . .

dsblv
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Dec 2006
Posts: 161
Location: Bellevue, WA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto Evoluzione
Grinder: MACAP MC4

Posted Sun Feb 12, 2012, 1:29pm Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

It would be nice to put this thread out of its misery. Any discussion around the BDB is just another forum for some people to rant about how great their machines are. I'm personally tired of the self-serving posts.

BubbaDude
Senior Member

Posted Sun Feb 12, 2012, 1:40pm Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

I found a very interesting YouTube about the Amish carriage, a fine example of classic transportation. I was surprised to see that the Amish have adopted many new features from the automotive world in the latest generation of their classic vehicle. Of course, the revelation that the Amish use YouTube is sort of a mind-boggling in its own right. Upgrading the Amish carriage. Is there wide-spread panic on CG about the new, low-cost, highly electronic DB espresso machines? I didn't say that, but I suppose it depends on how you define "wide-spread." There is clearly some panic, as one use of the CG forums for some people to share information about modifications and upgrades and to market such services, and the advent of low-cost, high tech DB espresso machines with reasonable reliability can only stifle that trade. Consider this comment: HTDAVE Said: Breville? chinese cheapie!! Where to go for SERVICE on breville? That is an unknown. Look here and to amazon for some reviews. Posted February 9, 2012 link And this one: calblacksmith Said: Regardless of all the " positive" above, the fact remains it is a disposible consumer appliance. if you are OK with that, fine but it is NOT a prosumer machine and it never will be. Posted February 11, 2012 link The first comment is from a guy how makes his living servicing and upgrading espresso machines. He added a PID to one of mine, and I know he does good work, but his business is clearly threatened by the new technology. I think he'll find a way to adapt and that there will be an aftermarket for upgrades to the BDB, but it's not clear what that market will look like and when it will start. Incidentally, if you need service for your BDB you call Breville's 800 number and they handle it for you. People who've had occasion to use Breville service aren't complaining. The second comment seems panicked. So yes, there is some panic. But I do appreciate this comment: saoye1 Said: For instance 1.1mm thick austenitic 300 series stainless steel body (chromed), Mostly all brass fittings including the boiler and again chromed. The BDB weighs 15kg, the Giotto weighs 21kg. Posted February 12, 2012 link It has some actual empirical content. Giotto has an expensive steel/chrome exterior and a heavy boiler. That accounts for part of its high price, but does the price of this steel and the weight of this boiler translate into utility? Probably not. The heavy boiler is a means of achieving temp stability that reflects the engineering limits of the pre-electronic era. It accounts for the HX machine's long warmup time and big appetite for power. But weight is one of those things that conveys the impression of "quality" without actually contributing to quality in any meaningful way. Does an espresso pulled from a machine housed in a "1.1mm thick austenitic 300 series stainless steel body (chromed)" taste better than one drawn from a machine housed in thin stainless and high-tech plastic? Probably not, but it depends on what's going on inside and who's at the controls, doesn't it? Anyhow, this was fun but it's all about religion now, so I'm afraid the OP's question won't be answered here, at least not today.

"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince

saoye1
Senior Member

Joined: 4 Feb 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Australia
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Giotto Premium/Lelit...
Grinder: Bezzera Obel DSQ modified

Posted Mon Feb 13, 2012, 2:20pm Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

So tempting to respond...resist...resist... :) How did you go Ben? Here's this morning's latte from my old tech Giotto premium ;p (Click for larger image)

bseiden
Senior Member

Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 17
Location: california
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Feb 13, 2012, 2:31pm Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

Hi Everyone, While I am dissapointed at how this thread ended up, I did glean some useful information from it. From now I am sticking with the Silvia until I can get the price of the breville down. While I do believe it is worth 1200 dollars, I can wait for the right time. In the mean time I will also be looking for a Rocket. I feel I cannot go wrong with either machine. But With a little one, simplicity means a bit. I was even thinking of getting a La Pavoni and keeping the Silvia for quick shots and milk frothing. I'll check back in when I do pull the trigger on something. If Anyone has thoughts on a great machine for 1200 or less Please let me know. Regards, Ben

calblacksmith
Moderator

Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 5,772
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1
Grinder: Many different commercial
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis...
Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner

Posted Mon Feb 13, 2012, 3:40pm Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

No panic at all, a bit of frustration with the never ending rants of a fanboy stuck on trying to sell his object of obsession to anyone and everyone. Why should i be panicked over a consumer grade disposible appliance ? I know the difference between my high quality machine and that appliance, disposible quality appliance. I just want people who are thinking about it to understand that the maker is known for second rate appliances. if they choose to buy one then may they live long and enjoy it all they can. at least they will know quality comprises they are making when it is compared to a quality machine and the BDB isnt it regardless of the fanboy rants.

In real life, my name is Wayne P. Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!

BubbaDude
Senior Member

Posted Mon Feb 13, 2012, 3:43pm Subject: Re: Upgrading from Silvia Rocket Giotto Prem+ vs. Breville Dual Broiler

bseiden Said: While I am dissapointed at how this thread ended up, I did glean some useful information from it. From now I am sticking with the Silvia until I can get the price of the breville down. While I do believe it is worth 1200 dollars, I can wait for the right time. In the mean time I will also be looking for a Rocket. I feel I cannot go wrong with either machine. But With a little one, simplicity means a bit. I was even thinking of getting a La Pavoni and keeping the Silvia for quick shots and milk frothing. I'll check back in when I do pull the trigger on something. If Anyone has thoughts on a great machine for 1200 or less Please let me know. Posted February 13, 2012 link Sounds reasonable, you don't have to please anyone but yourself.

"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince

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