dman777 Senior Member Joined: 26 Dec 2011 Posts: 236 Location: austin Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia- No PID Grinder: Compak k3 touch Drip: french press
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 2:20am Subject: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
I did a lead test on my Silvia and I had some lead in the water. Not that it was to a harmful level, but I would like to avoid it as much as possible. Especially, since a well known engineer has stated that the lead in water will eventually cause friction to the surface of the boiler thus have particles of the boiler in the water.
This is not a debate about if lead from boilers is bad for you. I'm not asking that and not interested in being told/flamed/scolded into how I should think. Pretend it's a paper and you have to stay on the main idea of the story.
If it this was a paper, the main idea would be:
I would like to know, from $700.00 to $1,800.00... what are my choices of Espresso machines that would have steel boilers?
Stuart Senior Member Joined: 9 Feb 2012 Posts: 113 Location: TX Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler Grinder: Baratza Vario Roaster: Air Crazy popper
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 6:19am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
Both the Crossland CC1 and Breville Dual Boiler have steel boilers. Apparently, some of the Gaggias now do as well. The question was asked elsewhere, but without the price constraint:
mhborstad Senior Member Joined: 18 Feb 2012 Posts: 31 Location: Gatineau Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 6:28am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
If you want a CC1, you should arrange to trade your Silvia for one. It sounds like you've already decided. It has a brass group though doesn't it?
You've already asked for and received a very comprehensive list of machines with steel boilers. You could add to that list almost every inexpensive boiler-based consumer machine currently on the market - that use welded SS boilers due to the cost savings: Saeco, Breville, Delonghi, Gaggia, Krups etc.
Insulation is a different matter - it might be done to save energy, reduce noise, reduce heat stress to plastics etc. It's also cheap, and an easy mod. Watch out for plastic in the brew path as well. You're confusing a design decision with build quality.
As for lead, I assume you checked your water supply as well? Link for the friction claim? Dissolved lead compounds (in the ppb) aren't going to scrubbing anything, but maybe "friction" is a simplification of what the action described.
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 10:05am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
Over the next few years we will see most (if not all) espresso machines moving to stainless steel boilers. There are European standards that will require lead levels to be such that brass and copper will not be used (at least according to info I got from a major US importer). That being said, it would be interesting to check lead levels from a machine with a brass boiler after a few months of use. I would theorize that minerals in the water and oxidation of the metal would decrease the levels of lead significantly.
shawngt2 Senior Member Joined: 1 Jun 2004 Posts: 26 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler Grinder: Baratza Vario Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 1:58pm Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
This is very interesting. One of the main reasons I chose the Breville Dual Boiler was due to the stainless. But, for some reason it still states California cancer statement on the box despite use of materials... :(
cappuccinoboy Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 789 Location: MILANO Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully... Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 2:19pm Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
dman777 Said:
I did a lead test on my Silvia and I had some lead in the water. Not that it was to a harmful level, but I would like to avoid it as much as possible. Especially, since a well known engineer has stated that the lead in water will eventually cause friction to the surface of the boiler thus have particles of the boiler in the water.
This is not a debate about if lead from boilers is bad for you. I'm not asking that and not interested in being told/flamed/scolded into how I should think. Pretend it's a paper and you have to stay on the main idea of the story.
If it this was a paper, the main idea would be:
I would like to know, from $700.00 to $1,800.00... what are my choices of Espresso machines that would have steel boilers?
Steel is beeing used mainly because works out fairly cheaper than brass, brass more and more is nickel coated or subjected to "ruweco" treatment, that chemically removes all surface lead, meeting,some claim, the most stringent California rules: anyway do not worry since you will not face the Roman Empire doomsday from lead poisoning just drinking coffee from your Silvia. That lead in the water could cause friction is totally new to me, since starting day one the interior of the boiler gets coated with limescale, but I will not argue with a well known engineer..., just feel safe because any particles of the boiler that might end up in the water would be filtered and retained by the ground coffee puck and never actually end into your espresso (or like). And as far as copper boilers and piping, the lead content is already at such low level, and safe !! lead has been banned from welding materials (European Rohs regulation), still for sure we shall see even lower levels...., thus even safer, still given the running price of copper manufacturer are just pleased to turn to stainless steel : two pigeons one stone : lower cost and no sanitary issues.... Already there are machines from household to professional or prosumer like most E61 machines that feature a stainless steel boiler, they lose some thermal efficiency but if you like peace of mind they can be an alternative, and other members are better equipped to give you all information available on different machines. Ciao, Pietro
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 2:49pm Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
How interesting it would be to go through the forums, find those most concerned about lead in the diet, and do an in-depth study of their diets in general. Artificial colors and flavorings, artificial preservatives, trans-fats, fast food intake, inorganic fruits and vegetables, source of meats and poultry, milk, eggs, air fresheners, scented detergents, scented candles, perfumes, makeups, skin creams, prescription drugs, etc., etc. I will guess that the amount of lead ingested from their coffee habit compared to the rest of their diet would be like putting a ruler into the Pacific Ocean, spitting in it to check for the, and quantifying the rise of the water level. Ok.. over the top? Change "Pacific Ocean" to "Bathtub." ;-)
Limiting the amount of lead in the diet is a good thing. it is a heavy metal and it does accumulate in the body. But unless you have changed the faucets in the home, they probably leach out more lead than the espresso machine, and you drink more tap water then espresso water. One glass of water is some 8 doubles worth.
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