Darin, while we await the "control" finding straight from the Ozarka bottle, what were your ppm/ppb measurements? You say not a harmful level, but would you be so kind as to tell us what you found?
dman777 Senior Member Joined: 26 Dec 2011 Posts: 236 Location: austin Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia- No PID Grinder: Compak k3 touch Drip: french press
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 10:15pm Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
Vivaldi Said:
I don't want to get too far into this debate, but with a HX machine, the water in your espresso isn't going into the boiler. For an HX machine, the discussion would be more about what the HX is made of...right? Are there SS HX's?
It really depends on the tube that is going through the boiler heating the water for brew. if it's made of copper/brass then it matters.
TonyVan Said:
Darin, while we await the "control" finding straight from the Ozarka bottle, what were your ppm/ppb measurements? You say not a harmful level, but would you be so kind as to tell us what you found?
The test I use has 2 bars. The first bar is a solid bar. If the second bar exists, then there is lead. But if it is not as dark as the first bar then it is not to the harmful level. Again, mine was not at the harmfull level. However, I would of liked mine to be more faded....or none existent at all.
IMAWriter Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 5,464 Location: Brentwood, TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Nothing at the moment Grinder: Vario-W,Preciso-Esatto/KyM... Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup Drip: Brazen.Chemex, Hario, Clever... Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 10:25pm Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
dman777 Said:
That is a very good question. I use Ozarka Spring Water and I still have some of the same jug. I already ordered another test kit($24.00 for a lead test kinda hurts, but I want to find out) from amazon and should be here on Thursday.
(Off topic just a second)...Interestingly, Costco's "Kirkland" brand water is actually Crystal Geyser, rebranded. I used it for years with my Anita. Just a wee bit higher than I'd like for hardness, but mitigated with a little Ro, worked real well.
Back on topic, if a steel boiler can do the job, no problem. I do believe that, as others have said the stuff that connects to it is often the real thing to consider, though I'm certainly no authority...far from it. I just think there is a "Mystique" surrounding brass boilers. I had NO scaling issues for 4 years, using the water combo I mentioned. (2/3'rds Spring water, 1/3 RO water)
One last note. I'm sure NONE of us want to see lasting acrimony here, and I'd rather not chill this thread. It is NOT the policy of moderators to jump in when a bit of testiness rears it's ugly head....unless the personal insults are ratcheted up beyond what we feel is allowable. This is not to say ANY insult, whether implied or direct is good. IMHO, if someone disagrees with another's posting, that should be expressed without getting personal, or condescending. We're all passionate here, but I'd also like to think smart enough to find the language to make our point without resorting to insults. This thread is just one instance of this, and I'm hoping it's just a passing thing.
Lets see if we can put aside the swords and yet stay on point. (sorry...it just happened..lol) There is MUCH to be valued on this thread.
dman777 Senior Member Joined: 26 Dec 2011 Posts: 236 Location: austin Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia- No PID Grinder: Compak k3 touch Drip: french press
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 11:12pm Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
IMAWriter Said:
I just think there is a "Mystique" surrounding brass boilers. I had NO scaling issues for 4 years, using the water combo I mentioned. (2/3'rds Spring water, 1/3 RO water)
I am glad you said this, because it demonstrates a important point.
When this well respected engineer stated that lead values in water will eventually etch the surface of a brass boiler, not only was I in perfect agreement(which means nothing because I have no back ground) but it brought up something very important that I learned in my physics class that supports this 100%:
Friction is everywhere. When you have a thin wire......the sea of electrons moves through it and if the wire is thin enough, the heat from the friction of the sea of electrons because of the wire's resistance will make it hot enough to turn the wire bright red. If the wire was thicker, you would not see the wire turn red...but the friction and wear is still there.
Same goes for the brass boiler(or copper) surface. It not on a scale to the human eye...(like a thin wire turning red from the heat released by friction)...but the lead particles are still there in the water, and when move around aggressively(especially in gas state where everything is most aggressive in movement) you can be sure there is friction of those lead particles smashing against the surface of the boiler, causing particles of the boiler surface to detach into the water....not visible to the human eye...and into the human body from consumption.
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 12:45am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
lead popping around in so small a content as your test shows would have to compete against much more common minerals found in water - these will, in time wear through the brass boiler of my poor machine only after they wear through the scale buildup - the scale caused by those minerals. Ever hear of lead build up inside a boiler? I haven't either.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
dman777 Senior Member Joined: 26 Dec 2011 Posts: 236 Location: austin Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia- No PID Grinder: Compak k3 touch Drip: french press
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 12:54am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
EricBNC Said:
lead popping around in so small a content as your test shows would have to compete against much more common minerals found in water - these will, in time wear through the brass boiler of my poor machine only after they wear through the scale buildup - the scale caused by those minerals. Ever hear of lead build up inside a boiler? I haven't either.
I will take the word of someone who was an engineer for La Marzocco over anyone else.
And a side note, I live in Austin Texas where it is flooded with cool coffee shops. With no exaggeration, 90% of those coffee shops use La Marzocco machines(including the high tier cafe medici). I love the espresso's they put out and the microfoam they put out. This saids alot if someone comes from that company.
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 1:07am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
The Crossland has that boiler because the Gee had that boiler. I like the Crossland and Bill C is a great guy, but please do not mislead (unlead) yourself into thinking a LM is on the way to your door.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
dman777 Senior Member Joined: 26 Dec 2011 Posts: 236 Location: austin Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia- No PID Grinder: Compak k3 touch Drip: french press
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 1:19am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
I never equated any machine for a LM machine...unless it was an actual LM machine. That is not what this is about.
What he stated about the brass boiler makes complete sense and is supported by what I learned in my physics class. In addition, he would know more about this than anyone else here on these forums. Good luck getting an engineer from any reputable Espresso company to come on these forums....we should be thankful for the information he contributes. It's from the source rather than blind assumptions or opinions from people who are just users of espresso machines.
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 1:30am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
dman777 Said:
I never equated any machine for a LM machine...unless it was an actual LM machine. That is not what this is about.
What he stated about the brass boiler makes complete sense and is supported by what I learned in my physics class. In addition, he would know more about this than anyone else here on these forums. Good luck getting an engineer from any reputable Espresso company to come on these forums....we should be thankful for the information he contributes. It's from the source rather than blind assumptions or opinions from people who are just users of espresso machines.
Forgot to answer the other questions above: Bio reactors use stainless steel mostly because of the inert qualities of stainless steel and the ability to sterilize it easily. There are others too. We like to limit brass contact for a couple of reasons. Low pH values of the water can actually etch the surface of the brass causing particles (copper and lead) to contaminate the water. Additionally there is heavy metal in most brass and the more it is reduced the more expensive it is...
Water can have a low pH, be neutral, or have a high pH - depends on the source - low pH water can be conditioned so the dreaded etching is minimized.
Also, He says in the thread he likes stainless, but still uses brass for that OPV attached to the boiler, and the thermoblock looks like aluminum which sets off another group of worries...
(Click for larger image)
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
dman777 Senior Member Joined: 26 Dec 2011 Posts: 236 Location: austin Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia- No PID Grinder: Compak k3 touch Drip: french press
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 2:05am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
EricBNC Said:
Here is what he said:
Water can have a low pH, be neutral, or have a high pH - depends on the source - low pH water can be conditioned so the dreaded etching is minimized.
Also, He says in the thread he likes stainless, but still uses brass for that OPV attached to the boiler, and the thermoblock looks like aluminum which sets off another group of worries...
Ok, correction: harder water will create more abrasion of the brass boiler surface leading to water with lead(boiler surface particles) being ingested. The end result still stands and is the same.
Minimized is not eliminated. If you have no brass or copper components, then you do not have any lead ingestion. Water sits in the boiler which allows more attachment to lead particles.
My lead test states water should be still for 6 hours. This is less worry some for a thermoblock since not much water sits in it.
In deed, a machine without any copper and lead components is best. And this can be had with commercial machines(not semi-commercial), so I don't think it was intended for humans to consume lead at the semi-commercial level....but cost is cost and there has to be a profit. The boiler is the most influential on water since the water is cooked and sits in it for hours. If it's a steel boiler it's a lot better than the alternative.
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