germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,018 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 5:07am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
OT for a moment. People scuff at lead as if it just can't happen when good foods and water are going into a person. For the first two years of my daughters life we needed to test her lead levels monthly because they where near the danger levels for someone that small. She ate organic fruits and vegetables (back then I didn't think about where these "organics"where sourced from), water filtered through a system that should have left very little if any lead behind, breast milk, and organic baby foods that we either made or bought in a jar. The lead got to her somehow. She did not drink any fruit juices then but levels of non organic arsenic and lead have been found in high levels in these products. She did love frothed milk that I made from my Oscar, there back OT, lol. Seriously though I don't scuff at lead anymore because it does get into people from our daily life, I am not worried so much for my 190lb body weight but for my under 30lb little ones I do.
Finding a machine that has all the "right" guts seems to be an impossibility but in this day and age seems like it could be a sales point if a machine was built with materials that are deemed safe. Of course in ten or twenty years we will find something that will kill use with those products.
dman777 Senior Member Joined: 26 Dec 2011 Posts: 236 Location: austin Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia- No PID Grinder: Compak k3 touch Drip: french press
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 5:18am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
That is quite an interesting story! I would not be so casual about lead in adults. From what I read, it is stored in the bone and it effects the adult neurologically...so I imagine if your prone to it and a neurological disease is aggravated by then it will be to late. If you do come down with a neurological disease, I guarantee you will spend the rest of your years(and they will be long) analyzing how you got it without ever coming to a real answer....over and over. I witnessed this myself with someone I knew. Good health is priceless.
So far, only the Breville DB is completely copper/brass free as far as I know.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,018 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 5:47am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
Darin, trust me when the day comes the list of things I willingly did to myself over the last 43 years will catch up with me long before lead gets me, lol. My 15 concussions will more then likely be a huge problem. When it comes to my children I am very protective and continue to learn what to avoid and promote.
slybarman Senior Member Joined: 3 Nov 2011 Posts: 334 Location: usa Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 8:27am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
germantownrob Said:
OT for a moment. People scuff at lead as if it just can't happen when good foods and water are going into a person. For the first two years of my daughters life we needed to test her lead levels monthly because they where near the danger levels for someone that small. She ate organic fruits and vegetables (back then I didn't think about where these "organics"where sourced from), water filtered through a system that should have left very little if any lead behind, breast milk, and organic baby foods that we either made or bought in a jar. The lead got to her somehow. She did not drink any fruit juices then but levels of non organic arsenic and lead have been found in high levels in these products. She did love frothed milk that I made from my Oscar, there back OT, lol. Seriously though I don't scuff at lead anymore because it does get into people from our daily life, I am not worried so much for my 190lb body weight but for my under 30lb little ones I do.
Finding a machine that has all the "right" guts seems to be an impossibility but in this day and age seems like it could be a sales point if a machine was built with materials that are deemed safe. Of course in ten or twenty years we will find something that will kill use with those products.
If you took all those steps and she was still getting lead into her body, then what was the point? Did you ever find out where the lead was coming from? This is in no-way at all a criticism of what you did or did not do. I would surely have done all of that and more if I thought it might benefit one of my kids. It just makes me wonder what the point of hyper-vigilence is with regard to this sort of thing (ie the espresso machine boiler), when it seems the real causes of problems may be either unknown or out of our control - as illustrated by your example.
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 8:39am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
EricBNC Said:
Water can have a low pH, be neutral, or have a high pH - depends on the source - low pH water can be conditioned so the dreaded etching is minimized.
Also, He says in the thread he likes stainless, but still uses brass for that OPV attached to the boiler, and the thermoblock looks like aluminum which sets off another group of worries...
Ok, correction: harder water will create more abrasion of the brass boiler surface leading to water with lead(boiler surface particles) being ingested. The end result still stands and is the same.
Minimized is not eliminated. If you have no brass or copper components, then you do not have any lead ingestion. Water sits in the boiler which allows more attachment to lead particles.
So is it water sitting now or water moving that is the culprit?
I notice you are now recommending equipment you have not used over equipment you own - I call that buyers remorse.
I watched as more experienced members grew tired more and more quickly with helping you and I am beginning to see why - you went so far earlier in this thread to toss out the weary straw man to make it appear that attacking your position is the same as attacking Bill Crossland.
You Darin, are no Bill Crossland...
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,018 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 9:08am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
slybarman Said:
If you took all those steps and she was still getting lead into her body, then what was the point? Did you ever find out where the lead was coming from? This is in no-way at all a criticism of what you did or did not do. I would surely have done all of that and more if I thought it might benefit one of my kids. It just makes me wonder what the point of hyper-vigilence is with regard to this sort of thing (ie the espresso machine boiler), when it seems the real causes of problems may be either unknown or out of our control - as illustrated by your example.
Moving did the trick, lol. After moving my newborn son did not experience the same lead levels, we also where more aware of where our fruits and vegetables where sourced from for him so it did pay off. I also do not keep most toys that are given to us for the same sourcing reasons which is something else I learned.moving out of Philadelphia which is a very old city and I am sure there are plenty of lead pipes they have not changed yet, a 150 year old house, copper that was soidered before lead free, and changing faucets to lead free newer models probably had the most effect. testing Philly water is a bit depressing, good thing there is a ton of prescription medicines in the water to help calm me, lol.
Still other things where found at our new home, like ridged insulation duct work that over time breaks down to give a nice dusting of fiberglass. Now I live in an area with much cleaner water, air, and lots of space for wild animals to live. Having a neighbor that is a infectious disease doctor that tells me all the things that can kill my kids from just touching a dead decaying animal is always fun. Trust me I am fine with my machine and it's copper and brass parts.
Ahh, finally you get it! Haha! There're many times I've wanted to post to contribute my opinion. I admit, he asked pretty good questions sometimes, but many times, it's his responses that put me off. He may have read the responses, but doesn't listen. I find it no point talking to someone that already has his stance even before you talk.
To stay on topic, if the Silvia indeed leaches off lead, like others had said, it's a minimal amount. It's not like you're drink 2 litter of coffee water from the Silvia everyday. In fact, have you tested your source of drinking water and food for lead amount? I believe those are more of a concern to you if you really truly care and not nitpicking about the Silvia. But if you really want to change the espresso machine, that's fine with us. But probably not because of lead level.
As for steel boiler machines, you already have a good list above. ;)
At the risk of veering even further OT and possibly advancing a straw-man argument, this machine does use considerable amounts of plastic tubing in the brew path. (see original First Look cutaway photographs) Now, I drink water out of plastic all the time. My RO water treatment system at home is almost all plastic; tubing, filter holders, RO canisters are all plastic (and different kinds of plastic). So I'm not going to sweat another 10-20cm of plastic in the path, and am going to trust that Breville has specified low-leachable food-grade plastics for that construction. But all plastics leach something.
I suspect comparative risk analysis between the leachables from food-grade plastics and the leachables from brass sheet or copper pipe would show the plastics have a lower risk. But without knowing all the different plastics to which the brew water is exposed, that analysis remains hypothetical.
The OPV is made of plastic -- the outer body looks like nylon. The "nylobraid" line leading away from the OPV (that one detaches to change the OPV setting) is probably vinyl -- the "nylon" referred to is the braid thread used for reinforcement. It looks like all the low-pressure water lines are vinyl. The translucent plastic tubing that appears to be used for high pressure connections might be a fluoropolymer, but is almost certainly a different material than the low-pressure lines and the OPV.
But then again, almost every reservoir machine I can think of uses plastic for the reservoir. (Exception? Elektra Microcasa Semiautomatica comes to mind.)
slybarman Senior Member Joined: 3 Nov 2011 Posts: 334 Location: usa Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 10:09am Subject: Re: Steel Boilers- What are my Espresso Machine Choices?
Stuart Said:
At the risk of veering even further OT and possibly advancing a straw-man argument, this machine does use considerable amounts of plastic tubing in the brew path. (see original First Look cutaway photographs) Now, I drink water out of plastic all the time. My RO water treatment system at home is almost all plastic; tubing, filter holders, RO canisters are all plastic (and different kinds of plastic). So I'm not going to sweat another 10-20cm of plastic in the path, and am going to trust that Breville has specified low-leachable food-grade plastics for that construction. But all plastics leach something.
I suspect comparative risk analysis between the leachables from food-grade plastics and the leachables from brass sheet or copper pipe would show the plastics have a lower risk. But without knowing all the different plastics to which the brew water is exposed, that analysis remains hypothetical.
The OPV is made of plastic -- the outer body looks like nylon. The "nylobraid" line leading away from the OPV (that one detaches to change the OPV setting) is probably vinyl -- the "nylon" referred to is the braid thread used for reinforcement. It looks like all the low-pressure water lines are vinyl. The translucent plastic tubing that appears to be used for high pressure connections might be a fluoropolymer, but is almost certainly a different material than the low-pressure lines and the OPV.
But then again, almost every reservoir machine I can think of uses plastic for the reservoir. (Exception? Elektra Microcasa Semiautomatica comes to mind.)
I never said I was, and I never said you were attacking him. I said I took his opinion above all others, I'm allowed to say that right? I also included my opinion means nothing since I have no background. Your perfectly allow to have your opinion and voice it. That is what normal human beings do in discussions. For me as an individual, I will put an Espresso Machine engineers above it...and that is my personal right. You should not take that personal and attack me with it.
*On a side note, I think I am going to a break from here. The constant attacks and harassments does not feel very healthy and I could stand to do without it for a good while.
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