Vagabond Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2012 Posts: 14 Location: Seattle, WA Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Mar 10, 2012, 12:33am Subject: Seeking advice for my initiation into the home espresso world.
*Update* Current machines I'm trying to decide between/price ranges are updated on page 3 *Update*
Hey fellow coffeegeeks,
First time posting, but ever since I stumbled upon this site not too long ago (really, only two or three days), I've been hard pressed to find time to do anything else. There is such an endless amount of information that my brain has got to be close to overflowing with coffee knowledge.
I'm one of those "ever since I went to Europe I've been after the perfect cup of espresso" people. Traveled abroad in France, England, and Spain with family a year or so ago and fell in love after first sip, but here at home nothing compares. So I've been telling myself I want to get an espresso machine for a while. Few months ago I briefly look into it, and my thoughts are "Oh, that's not too bad, only a couple hundred dollars, I can do that". Then I get caught up with school and put that thought on the back burner. Come back three months later to do some more intensive research and I'm realizing just how expensive this new hobby of mine could be to start up.
Some general info: I'm a college student looking for a machine that will last me a while. I need everything (Grinder, machine, all the various accessories). My budget will be from anywhere between $700-1500, I honestly haven't settled on a number (will discuss later). I'd prefer to have a machine that is rather easily serviceable if there is ever anything that goes wrong (not a machine that I'd have to go to the black market in this unheard of country to find a spare part for). I'm hoping to have a reliable set of coffee gear that will last me at least 10-15 years. I drink both espresso and milk drinks, probably 50/50 each. Not sure what other information you guys need, ask away if there's anything.
So I've read through every thread in the general discussion, looked at the 150-200 most recent threads on espresso machines, read the how to buy an espresso machine guide, glanced through the espresso grinder section of the forums, watched some of SeattleCoffeeGear's videos on various machines and general information about espresso machines and how they work, looked at several of the incredible websites set up by some of the fellow coffeegeeks here, and I still feel like I'm nowhere near deciding on what will be best for me.
The Preciso + Silvia or CC1 combo seems like that would be the lower end of what I would settle with, but not only am I stuck between those two machines, I'm stuck between the decision of buying a SBDU or kicking it up a level to HX or DB. As I said, I am a college student, but I'm one of those people who really appreciates quality, and would rather have something that would be great quality and last me a lifetime than try to save $200-300 for something that would not last as long/I would later regret/want to upgrade. However, $1500 is a little bit too high for me. I put such a big budget out because I've seen the tendency for people to say their budget is $400 then get recommended buying things that cost a total of $1000, and they do. That's great and all, but my limit is strictly $1500, I cannot go over that.
So coffeegeeks, help this overwhelmed espresso novice along on his quest for the holy grail of coffee? What are the biggest advantages/disadvantages of the two sides of my budget spectrum? Is shelling out the extra worth it in the long run? How do I prevent my family from thinking I'm crazy for wanting to spend more on an espresso machine than a computer?
Posted Sat Mar 10, 2012, 1:26am Subject: Re: Seeking advice for my initiation into the home espresso world.
Hi, and welcome.
I think that you are in great shape and that you shouldn't worry, you will find the right stuff and discover the ability to make the espresso that you seek. There will as always be a lot said in response to your inquiry, but I would like jump in early on with the my own bit of advice:
When making coffee, the most important ingredient is coffee.
Machines can be bought and sold. Budgets wax and wane. The most important thing is to find great coffee that has been roasted with care and attention to quality. The nice thing is that this is easy. The difficult thing, and the reason I bring it up, is that it's not cheap. Really good espresso tends to cost about $20/lb. Part of your budgeting should include these costs, and how much they add up to each month, and the total cost each year.
Other than than, I think the forum will be happy to help you find a way to make the coffee you desire within you $1000-$1500 budget. My preference is from a lever and a Pharos, but that is not for everyone.
sn_85 Senior Member Joined: 1 Dec 2011 Posts: 131 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Quick Mill Andreja Premium Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Sat Mar 10, 2012, 2:19am Subject: Re: Seeking advice for my initiation into the home espresso world.
I haven't been to Europe so I can't comment on how espresso tastes over there but you basically live in the mecca of coffee in the US. There are plenty of good local coffee shops and roasters near you and it at least surprising to hear you say that nothing compares. I don't know but my gut feeling says that if you aren't satisfied with the coffee in Seattle then who knows if spending $1500 on gear will produce the taste you're looking for. What local coffee shops/roasters have tried in the area?
You live close enough to SeattleCoffeeGear (in Lynnwood) that you should walk into the store and at least check out some machines, especially since they carry the CC1 and Silvia. Also check out Veniacoffee.com who is based out of Kirkland, WA and they can setup a demo of any of their machines by appointment.
Honestly, it sounds like you're looking for perfection. I'm not sure you'll find a "holy cup" every time you pull a shot with these machines, it's just the nature of it. The "holy cup" or "god shot" you're talking about is almost a never ending quest, kind of like trying to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. You certainly won't find it in a Silvia without a PID and it might be a headache with temp surfing. If you want temperature control and consistency I'd look at the CC1 and Quick Mill Silvano since they come with a PID stock. Again, it still doesn't guarantee a "god shot" just very good espresso once you get everything else dialed in.
Vagabond Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2012 Posts: 14 Location: Seattle, WA Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Mar 10, 2012, 3:10am Subject: Re: Seeking advice for my initiation into the home espresso world.
Thanks for the replies,
As far as coffee beans go, I've looked around at what's been recently praised here, and read through the list of favorite roasters (I believe it was from home-barista?), and I've narrowed down a couple of them. I've been buying beans from Espresso Vivace recently, which is listed on that list, and I've also tried the beans from Zoka's Coffee. I ordered a bag of coffee from Blue Bottle in CA as well, and all have them have proven to be great coffees, just not quite the same experience when made by drip. I've noticed that Red Bird seems to be fairly well liked around here, and am looking forward to giving them a try once I get everything set up.
It's not so much that I'm looking for perfection (the reference to the holy grail of coffee was just a bit of late night humor in my wall of text), as much as I'm just looking for the ability to make great espresso at home. Espresso Vivace in my opinion is great, as well as several of the other smaller shops that I frequent often, but they're inconvenient. Sure, I could go to a coffee shop every day for my espresso fix, but then not only am I paying for transportation, but I'm paying ~$3-4 per drink, which over a year adds up. Even though I'd be spending such a large amount of money on the equipment in the beginning, I'd practically pay that off after 1-2 years of producing my own drinks at home.
Visiting SeattleCoffeeGear is currently on my list of things to do (I'll probably pay them a visit in a week or so once I'm done with finals), but I just wanted to get a general sense of what machines to look closer at, and see what the current favorites were by the coffee community in a couple different price ranges. Demos on machines sounds great, I'll be sure to check out that site tomorrow and give them a call as I narrow down my options.
The PID was one of the reasons I was leaning more towards the CC1 in that price bracket, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a machine that's so new to the coffee world. For machines that are meant to last a "long time", it usually takes at least a year or two to figure out how reliable they are and all that jazz, and the fact that Ranchilio has been around for decades gives me a little bit more peace of mind (but dang the features of the CC1 are tempting...). I'm also a bit more of a fan of the classical looking machines. Switches over buttons, lots of stainless steel, that sort of thing. But I've also read and heard that Silvia can be rather finicky, and with the PID it's getting closer to the cost of HX machines. No offense to either company intended, just explaining the predicament going on in my head.
diggi Senior Member Joined: 28 Nov 2011 Posts: 382 Location: Halifax, NS Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Spaz vivaldi S1 V2 Grinder: B Vario, OE LIDO Drip: Chemex, Espro Press,... Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Sat Mar 10, 2012, 3:22am Subject: Re: Seeking advice for my initiation into the home espresso world.
Vagabond Said:
The PID was one of the reasons I was leaning more towards the CC1 in that price bracket, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a machine that's so new to the coffee world. For machines that are meant to last a "long time", it usually takes at least a year or two to figure out how reliable they are and all that jazz, and the fact that Ranchilio has been around for decades gives me a little bit more peace of mind (but dang the features of the CC1 are tempting...). I'm also a bit more of a fan of the classical looking machines. Switches over buttons, lots of stainless steel, that sort of thing. But I've also read and heard that Silvia can be rather finicky, and with the PID it's getting closer to the cost of HX machines.
Sounds like you have both sides of the story already. Only you can find the solution to this, though you get advice here (usually siding with the more expensive option of what ever the dilemma is). You'll need that budget ironed out before deciding which direction to go. SBDU is more inconvenient especially if making drinks back to back. But it is cheaper (satisfying the college budget). I just upgraded from silvia to spaziale vivaldi s2 yesterday and noticed a huge improvement, but that was a 1k upgrade after factoring in the sale of silvia (double your budget). But I always loved silvia and made great espresso. I got more serious about things and now I make better espresso. I'd recommend keeping a modest budget. Pay off you loans and upgrade as you become more serious about things....but I'm not a financial planner and I have huge student loans......do as I say, not as I do.
MisterJohnnyT Senior Member Joined: 13 Jan 2012 Posts: 59 Location: S.E. Florida Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Compak K3 Touch
Posted Sat Mar 10, 2012, 6:40am Subject: Re: Seeking advice for my initiation into the home espresso world.
You have probably realized this during all your reading, but it's worth a repeat: It's true when they say the grinder is more important than the machine. Don't skimp on the grinder.
sniggings Senior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2007 Posts: 49 Location: UK Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Mar 10, 2012, 10:22am Subject: Re: Seeking advice for my initiation into the home espresso world.
watched a lot of youtube vids on Settlecoffeegear,you will be in for a treat,they seem to have most machines up and running and will even fit a PID to your machine if the fancy takes you.
Posted Sat Mar 10, 2012, 10:23am Subject: Re: Seeking advice for my initiation into the home espresso world.
Since this is still a young thread and everyone on this forum loves to give advice, I'm sure you'll be getting plenty. First I would say that it's admirable to want equipment lasting 10 years, but if you get into espresso stuff, you will get the urge to upgrade/change equipment long before that.
I would start with one suggestion: Silvano + Baratza Vario = $1450. I just played with a newer version Silvano and it makes good coffee and steams very well. You have a PID temp control, good build quality, etc. Chris sells it. They don't carry the CC1 any more and I gather it was quality issues, but I'm not sure. You might ask them. If you're interested in levers, you could find a used La Pavoni for much less than $1000 and they make excellent espresso and steam OK (I think). A Ponte Vecchio Export or Lusso, if you can find one, would be preferable.
If you're looking used, there's more choices. Have fun. Michael
Posted Sat Mar 10, 2012, 10:26am Subject: Re: Seeking advice for my initiation into the home espresso world.
Just noticed that 1st Line still sells both models of Ponte Vecchio for under a grand. The Lusso is an excellent machine with good steam and good temp stability. Check out Bella Barista's review of the Lusso and numerous threads for Ponte Vecchio (Sama) here and on Home Barista (Peacecup, are you there?)
Vagabond Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2012 Posts: 14 Location: Seattle, WA Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Mar 10, 2012, 11:47am Subject: Re: Seeking advice for my initiation into the home espresso world.
I've definitely been keeping the grinder in mind, which is why if I go the more entry level route I'd be getting the Baratza Preciso, but if I'm going to be investing more, I'd most likely need to upgrade to the Vario or another higher end grinder.
Last night I stumbled upon the Silvano and I have to say, it looks great. However, I'm not too sure how much I'm liking the lack of a turnable knob for steaming. Even if it might not be too much of a problem in the long run, and I'd always want to be using it on max power, it'd still be nice to have the ability to control the power if I ever needed to. Otherwise, the Silvano is gorgeous, and I love that it's able to do shots and steam at the same time.
I just had a look at 1st Line's site, and while I do love the look of lever espresso machines, I don't think I'm quite at that level yet (maybe in several years when I'm even deeper invested into this hobby). My hopes of capping my budget around $1500 was in order to get a machine that would prolong the amount of time I'd be able to go without wanting to upgrade. I know these machines have a high resale value if well taken care of, so that's something I'm definitely going to keep in mind, too.
While browsing on the 1st Line site I also noticed they sell a PID equipped Le'Lit PL41. I think if I end up sticking to the cheaper end of my budget, that's going to be the machine I get. Still has a decent classical look, much cheaper than the Silvia and CC1, and the normal PL41 seems to garner a lot of praise around here for an entry level machine. Does anyone have any comparisons of the PID PL41 to a PID Silvia?
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