Rbrac Senior Member Joined: 2 Mar 2012 Posts: 14 Location: Niagara Ontario Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Mar 2, 2012, 11:49am Subject: Looking to purchase Silvia V3 and Virtuoso Preciso Grinder.
Hi all. I'm new to this forum but have been reading various articles to familiarize myself with this topic. I really only have a couple questions regarding my first purchase. The units I mention above were chosen based on advice and reviews from sites such as this. The Silvia V3 is a single boiler unit and I'm not sure if I should be looking at a double boiler unit. If so, what would be the best option? Second, the Silvia can come with the PID option which isn't cheap. I am meticulous by nature, and somewhat of a perfectionist, but how successful will a newby like me be without the PID? Is it worth the investment? How much time does the double boiler save? One final question will be where you recommend I purchase these units within the Southern Ontario region, where the retailer is reputable and will stand behind his product and support the warantees.
My apologies if these questions have already been addressed. I have not found direct answers yet. Your advice will be greatly appreciated.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,805 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Fri Mar 2, 2012, 12:28pm Subject: Re: Looking to purchase Silvia V3 and Virtuoso Preciso Grinder.
welcome and congrats!
I started with a Silvia about 10 years ago, and only recently (last december) upgraded to DB. I never installed PID, and you really don't have to, especially if you're as meticulous and perfectionist as you say. The key to using Silvia without PID successfully (and really any setup for that matter) is consistency. Have you decided between the Viruoso and Preciso grinders? (you actually put virtuoso precisio - so it's not clear which you meant) Having said that about non-PID Silvia, if I were to keep my old one, I would install the PID at this point. If Wayne (calblacksmith) chimes in here, you'll probably get an idea whether it's worth it to PID yourself or buy it pre-installed.
Regarding time savings, yeah, the DB saves time, but not on the warm up, which is going to be 30-45 minutes on any decent-excellent machine. Time savings will be due to the DB being ready to go anytime you are (once it's warmed up), whether you want to pull a shot or make a milk based drink, or even if you want to brew a cup of tea. I'd estimate it sames me about 10 minutes in my morning routine, where I make 2-3 milk based espresso drinks at a time.
You should listen to what others have to say about HX as well, if you are really considering DB. There's at least one good thread comparing the pros and cons of each. For that matter, have you done any reading about lever machines?
regarding retailer options...how far are you from Albany? Chris' Coffee Service is there and they offer some of the best customer service around (no matter what type of business you compare it to).
Lastly, you might want to go back to your "drawing board" and figure out a budget before deciding what equipment you want.
Rbrac Senior Member Joined: 2 Mar 2012 Posts: 14 Location: Niagara Ontario Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Mar 2, 2012, 1:51pm Subject: Re: Looking to purchase Silvia V3 and Virtuoso Preciso Grinder.
Thanks for the welcome. I look forward to hearing Wayne's opinion on the PID (to compliment yours). As for the grinder, I was aiming for the Preciso (I believe its the most recent release). I actually copy / pasted that title from another vendor site; go figure. I'm not familiar with 'HX'. Could you explain that to me? I have read about lever machines. As I understand it, they are as close as you will get to manual. I compared pros and cons of super-automatic, semi-automatic and manual, and had decided that the semi was the one for me. I'm prepared to do a little work to get a great shot. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. As far as Chris's Coffee Service, I'm about 1 hour from the Buffalo boarder, but I was hoping to avoid crossing and the hassle I may get with this new equipment in my possession. I would be happy to purchase from them if the shipping isn't too crazy, and the price is attractive. Who should I talk to there? As for my budget, I was on the verge of spending around $1200 to $1400 on a super automatic when I got the feeling that I wasn't going to get my money's worth, and achieve my ultimate goal; the best shot of espresso I can possibly get at home for the money. That's what brought me to this combination. Besides all that, the mechanical geek in me likes the build of the Silvia with brass boiler. I have found another vendor here in Canada that is selling this combination for under $1,000.00 before taxes, with free shipping. I figure after tax and few added pieces like tamper and steamer cup, I should meet my budget. Of course, if I decide on the PID addition, that would put me over. Tough decision. I work for an automation company, so I may be able to get my electrical friends to rig up a PID for allot less if I absolutely need it. Thanks again and I look forward to your answers.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,772 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Mar 2, 2012, 2:08pm Subject: Re: Looking to purchase Silvia V3 and Virtuoso Preciso Grinder.
Hi and welcome.
you might want to start looking into a HX machine There is nothing wrong with silvia but with your stated budget you can get more of a machine than silvia.
I have operated sylvia bolth with and without a pid and I can say life is much much better with. when you start looking at sylvia with a pid then you are starting to get into the range of starter HX machines.
We can all agree though that a super automatic will be hard pressed to come close to the quality of a humble SBDU setup with a good grinder.
I don't know all the ins and outs of buying when you live in canada and from what I understand equipment is more expensive there than it is here but I would seriously think about a used h x machine in good shape for the same price as the new sylvia with a PID.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,805 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Fri Mar 2, 2012, 2:27pm Subject: Re: Looking to purchase Silvia V3 and Virtuoso Preciso Grinder.
Well, the Baratza model name issue is kind of funny to me. I'm, no expert on their product line, by any means, but if you look around there are a lot of people using the two terms combined as a single grinder. In fact, when I put bratza in google, I got a hit that show their own site with subcategory hyperlinks and one of those links actually says "virtuoso preciso". However, if you go to their actual product page there are separate listings for the virtuoso and the preciso.
HX is heat exchange. It's the same class (IMO) as prosumer DB machines, but they are designed differently. The HX machines reuire a little more hands-on to adjust temp at the group, by use of a cooling flush. Proponents say this flush becomes second nature and is a no brainer after a while. DBs' PIDs maintains a constant group boiler temp, which can be adjusted in one degree increments by the PID programming (rather than the cooling flush). However, the DB takes another 30 minutes to restabilize at the new temp, while the HX user adjusts on the fly (as long as they know what their doing). If you don't change coffee beans very often, then you want the group temp stable and always the same, and waiting 30 minutes to change it won't be an issue. Most of the good HX machines are cheaper than the DBs (I think, so don't kill me if I'm wrong about that).
The Izzo Alex Duetto II DB machine is about US$2400. I think the Breville is a lot less, but it's been on the market a shorter amount of time and the company doesn't have the greatest history. However, there's a long, long, long owner's thread on it here.
Talk to Mary at CCS. She's wonderful. You can email or call her.
Regarding the PID on Silvia, you can search this site for calblacksmith and PID and maybe find his thread about DIY quickly. There are a bunch of kits out there and it sounds really easy to do...especially with a good walkthrough.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,772 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Mar 2, 2012, 3:01pm Subject: Re: Looking to purchase Silvia V3 and Virtuoso Preciso Grinder.
very good post Ron, except for one niggle, LOL HX machines make up the vast installed base of commercial machines so i would not class them as prosumer.
DB or HX machines can make outstanding coffee. it is more a way that you prefer to work then it is a ranking of the machine. you can have prosumer machines in both hx or DB as well is commercial machines.
as for the rest of your post I completely agree and I think I noticed some echoes of my own words in there!
;P
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Posted Fri Mar 2, 2012, 3:09pm Subject: Re: Looking to purchase Silvia V3 and Virtuoso Preciso Grinder.
Rbrac Said:
As for my budget, I was on the verge of spending around $1200 to $1400 on a super automatic when I got the feeling that I wasn't going to get my money's worth, and achieve my ultimate goal; the best shot of espresso I can possibly get at home for the money.
So, I guess I will whip out my soap box here and say that the best shot of espresso for the money would probably come from a $350 vintage Europiccola, an $250 OE Pharos, and the best espresso blend that you can have shipped to you on a recurring basis (about $20/lb).
I know this is not what the OP was really talking about, and for $1200 ($900 machine + $300 grinder) a very good set up can be had. I would have to throw my hat in with the HX supporters here. I never really enjoyed using any of my SBDU machines. I find temperature surfing very annoying. I very much enjoyed the consistency of my Expobar Office Pulser, and I think that entry level HX machines offer a better value than a PIDed Silvia in a bunch of different way (or any PIDed SBDU), be it brew environment temp stability, brew environment temp consistency, in most cases steam power and quality, and especially milk drink work flow.
I don't know enough about the consumer DB machines currently available in your price range to have an opinion.
I don't know what the Canadian price difference is between the Preciso and the Vario is, but I happen to really like Vario. In my experience it is the perfect consumer grinder, and in the US it is worth the $150 extra (and really worth it if you can find someone selling a lightly used one after being bit by the upgrade bug). Everything that I have done with commercial grinders seems to be an attempt to replicate the Vario's abilities, but nothing does because commercial gear is scaled and engineered with commercial priorities in mind and not consumer priorities.
Rbrac Senior Member Joined: 2 Mar 2012 Posts: 14 Location: Niagara Ontario Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Mar 2, 2012, 5:24pm Subject: Re: Looking to purchase Silvia V3 and Virtuoso Preciso Grinder.
Wow! I obviously still have some homework to do with respect to HX machines. Since you gentlemen are well versed in this field, would you be kind enough to point me in the direction of some reputable HX consumer models that I can investigate to determine if this is the right set up for me (taking my budget into consideration)? Are there any good technical write ups on the inner workings of the HX system I can read to educate myself? I've heard good things about the Preciso grinder, so I hope my choice here is a wise one.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,805 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Fri Mar 2, 2012, 5:39pm Subject: Re: Looking to purchase Silvia V3 and Virtuoso Preciso Grinder.
everything I know about HX machines, I've learned through this forum over the past few months. In fact, I feel like a newbie in many respects, even though I've been doing this about 10 years and have taken a full day barista training class from a 2 time US Barista Champion.
Randy (frcn) just directed me to a manual for a Vibiemme double boiler to answer some questions I have about pre-infusion and there is a thorough explanation of the E-61 group head in it. I'm looking forward to getting the time to read it carefully. If we're lucky, he'll post something similar for you regarding HX. In the meantime, you might want to check out his website espressomyespresso. There's a wealth of information there.
This forum is great. there are a good number of very experienced guys here who really understand it all. Better than that though, they can explain it, and you really learn.
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