coffeegeeknoob Senior Member Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 4 Location: hp Expertise: Just starting
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2012, 7:32am Subject: looking into buying an espresso machine
Ok first off, im new in the forums and not a coffee expert thats why i came to seek advice :) my friend and I has been thinking of opening a small coffee shop, and after looking around some sites, the Rancilio Silvia v3 seem to have good reviews but does this machine have a capacity to serve a small coffee shop? Anyway, the rancilio may not be available in my area so i guess i need to choose from other companies. These are the ones available in my area Saeco, Breville and De Longhi Im looking into semi and automatic machines of a maximum budget of $1000. the automatic is an option because i was thinking it would help with human error and make consistent quality but i presume not as good as the semi? what brand/model do you guys recommend for this small coffee shop?
epearl Senior Member Joined: 8 Mar 2012 Posts: 19 Location: New Jersey Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia V3 Grinder: Preciso
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2012, 8:28am Subject: Re: looking into buying an espresso machine
Hello, So, quick admission; I'm no expert about espresso. But, i've done a lot of reading, and have some experience, so here's my 2 cents: The Silvia is a great home machine, but you'd go absolutely insane trying to do anything commercial with it. It's what's called a single boiler dual use unit, meaning it has to change the boiler temperature between brewing espresso and steaming, which takes a couple of minutes. So making a single latte with a Silvia will take at least 3 or 4 minutes, at the very least. The Silvia's boiler is also quite small (~.3 liters), so it takes a while to come back up to temperature after you pull a shot. The Silvia is also very finicky about single shots, which could be the bread and butter of a small cafe. Finally, the Silvia uses a normal thermostat to set the temp in its boiler, and this thermostat has a wide dead band (the difference between where the boiler will shut off, say at 205F, and where it will come back on, say at 185F). Espresso is best brewed at a very specific temperature, so unless you want to invest in a PID (digital program that increases your control over the thermostat, allowing you to set a specific temp), then you're either going to produce sub-par espresso, or have to temp surf (wait for some # of minutes after the boiler turns off to try to approximate the right temp), which will add time per shot. So... no silvia. For an operation that requires any kind of volume, you'll either want a HX (heat exchanger) machine (One larger boiler, usually 1.5 liters or more, is always kept a steaming temp, and a metal tube runs from the reservoir to the brew group, so that when you want to pull a shot, cold water is flash heated up to approx. the right temp, and doesn't deplete the boiler. This allows many shots to be pulled without much time delay, and it also allows you to steam at the same time as you pull shots, since the steam boiler is separate from the brewing process), or a dual boiler (basically two silvias: one boiler dedicated to brewing, the other to steaming. Since these machines are quite expensive, they'll usually come preequipped with PIDs to managed temps). For your budget, a DB is basically out of reach, unless you consider the Breville 900, which has a checkered past, but is now pretty well though of. There's a fair number of lightly used HX machines that you have access to, including several quickmill offerings such as the Anita and Andreja (see chris coffee), the Nuovo Simonelli Oscar (not pretty, but a big boiler HX, and lots of used ones for pretty cheap on ebay, and if you need to go with new, it's basically 1k), and Bezerra units from 1st line. HXs take some getting used to, but you'll be able to manage a small commercial operation with one much better than you would with a Silvia or similar single boiler like a Saeco, Breville (not a 900), or De Longhi (also, just don't get these... they use cheap components, bad portafiliters, and are definitely not semi-commercial ready). Finally, as far as superauto or not... I'd definitely say not. Superautos are very expensive for the quality they create, and though I don't have much experience with them, I'm fairly sure that one under 1k will be slow and incapable of turning out a good drink. Go with semi-auto, they're much more fun and interesting, and your customers will thank you for it.
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2012, 8:54am Subject: Re: looking into buying an espresso machine
Uhh... Really? Sounds like the perfect plan for failure. Your post sounds more like a troll than a serious request for assistance. A Silvia for coffee shop use? The list of reasons why that is a TERRIBLE idea is longer than I have time (or desire) to type. My advice - get a consultant firm to help, or at least get a partner that knows something about coffee and business. Otherwise, stay home and flush cash down the toilet. I am not being rude- just trying to give you a full dose of reality. Unless this "coffee shop" is a front for some other "business," your lack of knowledge and the lack of research on your own part is a one-way road to financial disaster. The salesmen with the deed for the Brooklyn Bridge will be knocking at your door in no time.
epearl Senior Member Joined: 8 Mar 2012 Posts: 19 Location: New Jersey Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia V3 Grinder: Preciso
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2012, 8:54am Subject: Re: looking into buying an espresso machine
Also, two more things: Since you're looking at a small cafe, you might want to consider something larger and or plumbable; that means you won't have to continually refill the reservoir and empty the drip tray, which could be a major timesaver if you're making a lot of drinks. Semi-commercial machines like the oscar often have a different model you can buy that's plumbable, but they're usually at a premium. Or, if you're handy and willing to do some research and get your hands dirty, look on your local craigslist, and you'll probably come across a wide array of big commercial machines that are very cheap. Make sure you check them out before you buy, but if you have the space, the power (220v usually), and the water (most larger commercials require a water hook up), you could get an amazing machine for a relatively tiny amount of money, and a modest time investment. Do your research first though; this forum is an excellent resource, and a simple source on a machine you don't know much about will probably give you a wealth of info. You'll need a good grinder. Or two. This is probably the most repeated line in espresso advice, but it continues to be true: your grinder is VERY important. With an HX or DB machine, and especially with a used commercial machine, you'll need a grinder with an MSRP of at least 500 or 600. Don't despair though; used is the way to go on these purchases, as you can replace even the fanciest burr sets for under $50, and you'll find lots of great used grinders on craigslist and ebay for not too much money. The gold standard these days tends to be Mazzer, but there are others out there as well. Again, if it looks good but you don't know what it is, do a search on here (or online), and you'll soon have plenty of info.
epearl Senior Member Joined: 8 Mar 2012 Posts: 19 Location: New Jersey Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia V3 Grinder: Preciso
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2012, 8:59am Subject: Re: looking into buying an espresso machine
frcn Said:
Uhh... Really? Sounds like the perfect plan for failure. Your post sounds more like a troll than a serious request for assistance. A Silvia for coffee shop use? The list of reasons why that is a TERRIBLE idea is longer than I have time (or desire) to type. My advice - get a consultant firm to help, or at least get a partner that knows something about coffee and business. Otherwise, stay home and flush cash down the toilet. I am not being rude- just trying to give you a full dose of reality. Unless this "coffee shop" is a front for some other "business," your lack of knowledge and the lack of research on your own part is a one-way road to financial disaster. The salesmen with the deed for the Brooklyn Bridge will be knocking at your door in no time.
Ha, good reply... I hope I haven't been wasting my time with a troll. Still, despite the fact that this question seems ridiculous to us, someone who doesn't know much about espresso might conceivably ask it; some people prefer to ask questions first and research later, some the other way around. If I had just had things explained to me at the get-go, instead of spending untold hours perusing forums, reviews, etc etc, maybe I would've started off with a better grasp of the topic. Then again, maybe I'd be totally confused. I'm of the opinion to give him a chance, but you provide a good reality check!
Just like Randy, this reply is in no way meant to be rude, so if it comes across that way, please accept an apology and re-read it with that in mind.
If you're going to call it a "coffee shop" you ought to learn something about coffee. There are thousands of posts here that can teach you some basics, including similar inquiries about opening an establishment that serves coffee as an added feature to their main product. The Rancilio Silvia is a home machine, and can't really make more than a couple of drinks at a time. As Randy pointed out, there are a myriad of reasons why, but think about this one for starters...you'll have to stop and fill the reservoir after every few drinks.
Let us know if you need any more help after doing some research.
coffeegeeknoob Senior Member Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 4 Location: hp Expertise: Just starting
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2012, 10:01am Subject: Re: looking into buying an espresso machine
ok i understand what you guys are saying. well its just the first week since i looked into the equipment i need to start, thats why i dont know a lot about them. let me tell you why we considered to put up a coffee shop, first we found a good location with a very cheap rent around $400, then we found out it really cheap to prepare a single serving of espresso, latte, coffee based shake drink (like a frap), less than 50c then sell it for $2-2.5 without accounting for salary of 2-3 employees and utilities, i only need to sell like 10 servings per day (or 1 serving per hour) to pay the rent. we saw something like $2k-3k potential monthly income (with just 5-10 servings an hour)
im not looking for a high capacity machine because i dont expect high traffic of customers, probably around 5-10 shots an hour capacity. dual boiler is the way to go with a large reservoir as you guys said. i have a separate budget for the grinder, blendtec and other stuff, the $1k is just for the espresso machine. its not like we will start on anything before we even research about it, thats pretty obvious. i just thought of asking here while i read around would help me understand faster.
coffeegeeknoob Senior Member Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 4 Location: hp Expertise: Just starting
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2012, 10:14am Subject: Re: looking into buying an espresso machine
no problem with me. i only brought up silvia because there is a lot of mention about this machine and i wanted to know about its capacity, but as you guys pointed out, its not an option for a coffee shop for a lot of reasons.
bamaster Senior Member Joined: 16 Aug 2010 Posts: 94 Location: Houston, TX Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Mini Vivaldi I Grinder: Mahlkonig ProM
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2012, 10:15am Subject: Re: looking into buying an espresso machine
Interesting.
If you're new to coffee I can assume that you don't have any experience with brewing espresso. With no experience and with a Silvia (or anything else below $1000), you will have a very difficult time with making an enjoyable shot of espresso. If your business model depends on 10 drinks per day, I would think that you would hope that some of those would be repeat customers. Making bad espresso = no repeat customers. No repeat customers = failed business.
Forget the Blendtec and spend the money on the espresso machine. Heck, if that was my business model, I would (puts on flame suit) forget the grinder and find a way to buy a super-automatic that will grind and brew.
thedotben Senior Member Joined: 8 Mar 2012 Posts: 39 Location: Holland Expertise: Pro Barista
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2012, 10:57am Subject: Re: looking into buying an espresso machine
Have you thought about marketing? Signage? Business licenses? Food? Furniture and seating? Utilities? POS system and credit card charges? Have you found a roaster? You have glassware? Dishwasher? Are you up to code? Insurance?
What I am hearing in this post is "we have cheap rent and want a cheap machine just to get by." Nothing about opening a business is cheap -- have you thought about every other expense that goes into the process?
I know that you said that you don't start anything without researching it, but if you are aiming for 2-3k a month, then you and all your employees are going to be living in poverty.
Let me ask this: WHY do you want to open a shop? Is it to serve great coffee? Are you opening a business to make a load of cash? Either or is fine. But I am a person about big dreams. Trying to barely scrape by and pay rent while serving 10 drinks a day isn't dreaming big. It seems like settling.
I know this was a blunt post, but I would hate seeing people go into business before they are ready and end up beating up or bankrupt.
Figure out what your purpose is.... dig down and find your passion and then throttle it. Research, and know everything. Get a consultant. Don't let anything stop you. Then it'll never feel like work.
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 