germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,011 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2012, 6:56am Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
I wanted to point out an overlooked benefit of a naked PF. Since the water does not touch any metal of the PF while flowing it does not need to be preheated. This can be very useful when prepping multiple drinks in a short period of time. Checking a spouted PF with an IR temperature gauge it is amazing how quickly it is loosing heat once it is no longer touching the group.
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2012, 7:57am Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
germantownrob Said:
I wanted to point out an overlooked benefit of a naked PF. Since the water does not touch any metal of the PF while flowing it does not need to be preheated. This can be very useful when prepping multiple drinks in a short period of time. Checking a spouted PF with an IR temperature gauge it is amazing how quickly it is loosing heat once it is no longer touching the group.
Locking a cold PF into the group willl bring down the group temperature. This messes with the expected offset so that you end up brewing cooler than with a heated PF.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,011 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2012, 9:59am Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
JonR10 Said:
Locking a cold PF into the group willl bring down the group temperature. This messes with the expected offset so that you end up brewing cooler than with a heated PF.
I just did some playing with this, my group at the gasket is 147.7f and has been 3hrs since last shot (time for a shot), the spouted PF at room temp (72f) was locked and loaded and after 30sec the same spot on the group measured 143.2f and returned to 147.5f in 4 sec. The 72f naked PF was locked in and after 30 sec the same spot on the group was 143.7f. Now this gets interesting, when I remove the preheated PF and measure into the same spot I get 142.9f which stabilizes at 147.7f a few moments later.
What I checked next is what a pre heated PF without the basket measures at the spout, mine was 124.6 and the rim touching the group gasket measured 127.1f and if you prep a basket while inside the PF the spout measured under 120f in the 15-20sec it takes me to prep.
So I am not to worried about what a room temp PF will do to the group temp since just having one locked in preheating is keeping the group a few degrees cooler then when nothing is locked in and the group temp is very close to the same as when locking in a non pre heated PF whether naked or spouted.
JohnLyn Senior Member Joined: 15 Aug 2011 Posts: 228 Location: Golden, BC, Canada Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldy Grinder: Vario Drip: Bonavita Roaster: Toastess popper
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2012, 10:01am Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
that makes sense regarding the group temperature. when I take the portafilter out I remove the basket to fill and distribute but put the portafilter back into the group.
I'm new at this, but so far I think that the Naked just makes more sense than the spouted. They are easier to use for tamping and basket removal and are just plain cleaner (less parts). also, also, and yes this plays into my decision... they are way sexier!!
I do have a couple of questions though:
what are the coffee characteristic differences between using a spouted or a naked portafilter?
are there any advantages to a spouted portafilter? (with the exception of yielding two singles out of a double basket, which I don't do anyway)
Not for $80 EXTRA dollars. If we had the choice of a naked or a spouted when we bought our BDB's, I would have chosen naked. but we didn't.
They are easier to use for tamping
disagree
and basket removal
not if you have the spring removed--which you should, if you remove your basket for every shot, as part of your prep and distribution.
and are just plain cleaner (less parts).
yes, but not to the tune of $80
also, and yes this plays into my decision... they are way sexier!!
sexier for a newbie maybe. but naked PF's have already been popular for 5 years. they are no sexier to me than a mullet haircut or wraparound sunglasses with neon green temples.
I do have a couple of questions though:
what are the coffee characteristic differences between using a spouted or a naked portafilter?
none, that i can tell. taste of the coffee is the same. naked PF's came around as a training tool for diagnosing poor shot prep problems and/or detecting channelling.
are there any advantages to a spouted portafilter?
yes. they are free--if you bought a BDB. the naked will cost you $80 extra--plus shipping.
JohnLyn Senior Member Joined: 15 Aug 2011 Posts: 228 Location: Golden, BC, Canada Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldy Grinder: Vario Drip: Bonavita Roaster: Toastess popper
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2012, 10:49am Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
94.00$ in canada... as a newb i got one to play around with the tools available which it sounds like you already did on a previous machine (unless there is some massive improvement in locking mechanism it sucks that the design is proprietary and therefore other portafilters cannot be used). So i definitely understand your reluctance to spend yet another 80$ for the equivalent of a mullet....
I definitely enjoy using it though and have not touched the spouted since.
but therein lies the question: will the naked go the way of the mullet and we'll all find ourselves laughing at old pictures of ourselves looking under the portafilter to look at the cone development... or it is here to stay?
I would pay the extra money, and I have. For me, there is no good reason to use a spouted PF
They are indeed easier to use for tamping, becasue the bottom is flat. Of course I work with the basket and load into the PF at the end, so this point is moot for me.
dagoat Said:
not if you have the spring removed--which you should, if you remove your basket for every shot, as part of your prep and distribution.
I disagree. This is why I prefer to use ridgeless baskets. The basket slips in and out easily, but the spring holds well enough for knocking out pucks. I find that working without a spring is clumsy when knocking out pucks, and can be messy.
And yes, they are just plain cleaner as well. Spouts can hold fluid and get dingy, and the hole through the bottom of the PF body can be difficult to clean. Others don't seem to have the same issue as me with dripping, but I find the spouts and PF body to hold fluid and drip all over as I'm working, making damp messes around my knock box and grinder tray.
But of course, I'm a neat freak, so for me the bottomless PF has the advantage of not retaining any fluid at all.
dagoat Said:
sexier for a newbie maybe. but naked PF's have already been popular for 5 years. they are no sexier to me than a mullet haircut or wraparound sunglasses with neon green temples.
Again, I disagree (respectfully). I don't wear polyester or bellbottoms anymore, but I never seem to get tired of watching the shot develop across the basket bottom face. It is indeed just plain sexy.
I may get in trouble for saying this, but sexy never goes out of style. Beautiful women have been considered art for centuries. They may wear different sunglasses now, but nudes never go out of style. ;-)
For a well prepared shot, taste is the same. Mouthfeel can be more fluffy/airy for bottomless and more dense/syrupy for spouted, but swirling or mixing makes both indistinguishable in every way (to blind taste test subjects)
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2012, 5:44pm Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
The naked seems to make more sense that a dual spout. I can't remember the last time I pulled two shots at once, it does build up a lot of crud, and it's one more temperature variable to worry about. With these "fuel-injected" dual PID, pre-heated machines, it seems to me that good temp. stability comes from minimizing the weight of the parts in the brew path rather then maximizing them as they do on the "carburetted" models.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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