I also posted on "home-barista.com" for advice: although the main contenders have changed a little since I started that thread. I hope I'm staying within appropriate forum etiquette boundaries.
I'm not on a tight budget, but I would need to convince myself that I was at the right place in the cost/benefit curve. In theory, I could go north in cost if I was convinced that it was best but it might be a hard sell to myself.
I'll probably drink mostly straight espresso. I will rarely make more than two drinks at a time (sometimes with steamed milk). I will probably make 0-4 drinks a day.
I'm definitely interested in consistent taste and being able to get excellent taste though I'm not a total perfectionist. I'd prefer to buy once and not feel the need to upgrade for a very long time. I'm not likely to get upgrade envy just out of boredom but might if I really notice design limitations that bother me.
Given these considerations, I'm leaning toward the CC1 (my main cons are mediocre styling and unknown build quality). I'm also considereing the Silvano or a Bezzara (though I don't like the size / styling of the BZ02, I'm guessing the BZ09 is inferiror to the Silvano and the BZ07 is a bit pricey). I know the Oscars are very well-regarded at their price point, but I don't need the steam power, don't like the size/styling and figure a Silvano might give me better consistency.
For grinder: I'm leaning heavily toward the Preciso Vario but might be swayable if the Virtuoso would give me signficantly better taste (from what I've read that's likely not the case). The CC1 / grinder deal at SCG makes it a really attractive deal and basically $400 less than the Silvano. It seems to me that the PID and thermoblock will get me a long way to the features that will matter most for taste.
Also, I have a Breville BCG450XL grinder. I have no intentions of using it for espresso (as I'm sure it will be totally inadequate) but wondering how much difference I should expect from my new grinder for drip and Press Pot coffees. (I know from my readings here that the Preciso may actually be better than the Vario for non-Espresso).
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,645 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 8:59pm Subject: Re: Advice sought - Espresso Setup with grinder up for about $800-$1200
Honestly, it sounds like you have it sorted.
While the steam of a HX seems at the moment seems to not be important, I think the bigger boiler that HX machines have thus better temp stability will be important to you.
DB can easily do what you are asking but not in your price range unless you buy used, even then..... it may be very tight.
The Vario is the much better choice for a grinder. My PERSONAL views tend to run to commercial but they need a large kitchen or coffee bar to not be the elephant in the room for a home environment.
You can get great espresso from a high end SBDU but set your sights higher than Silvia, by the time you add the electronics to tame the temp swings, you can buy a better machine and not have to deal with her, ..... personality.
I do advise you to keep steam in the back of your mind. Like you, I started with nearly no interest in milk drinks but over time, I have come to enjoy them very much also. I tend to drink a lot of coffee and when the acid gets to be too much, the milk allows me to drink the coffee while taming the acid.
It is your money and only you can say what you like to look at, that is a very personal choice and one you will live with every day for a long time. If you need to spend a few $ more to buy what you like to look at AND it meets all your other requirements, it is money well spent.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,098 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 9:14am Subject: Re: Advice sought - Espresso Setup with grinder up for about $800-$1200
Barry,
My concerns about the CC1 are simple: the machine hasn't been around long enough (IMHO) to know about its "real-world" longevity and performance. Patience is a virtue, however, as we wait for the report from the CG Road Trip. And, of course, Bill Crossland's involvement is a plus. But were I in the market for a new machine, I would wait before buying a CC1.
There is much to recommend a Bezzera BZ07spm ($1199), however, as well as the Nuova Simonelli Oscar ($10500. The drawback is that both of these take up too much of your budget to permit a decent grinder.
BarryR Said:
For grinder: I'm leaning heavily toward the Preciso Vario but might be swayable if the Virtuoso would give me signficantly better taste (from what I've read that's likely not the case).
OK, to the best of my knowledge, none of these grinders exist.
There is the Baratza Vario, that features micromental adjustments, and grinds by time (set through a digital display, divided into 0.1 second increments), either into a bin or directly into your portafilter.
There is the Baratza Preciso, that features stepped adjustments, and grinds by time (set by a dial), either into a bin or directly into your portafilter.
There is the Baratza Virtuoso The CC1 / grinder deal at SCG makes it a really attractive deal and basically $400 less than the Silvano. It seems to me that the PID and thermoblock will get me a long way to the features that will matter most for taste.
If you can, I'd skip the Virtuoso -- grab the Vario if it fits in the budget, and if not, grab the Preciso.
You could pick up a used Oscar and save some money.
That said, I agree with Wayne when he writes
calblacksmith Said:
While the steam of a HX seems at the moment seems to not be important, I think the bigger boiler that HX machines have thus better temp stability will be important to you.
ampguy Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2010 Posts: 119 Location: Pac NW Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 10:21am Subject: Re: Advice sought - Espresso Setup with grinder up for about $800-$1200
Hi Barry, you're probably going to want a PID if you like sampling a lot of specialty roasts, that sometimes come with specific brew guidelines.
I haven't tried many on your list, like the Bezzeras or Silvano, but have used an Oscar briefly.
I do own a CC1, and Preciso, and am very happy with both. On steaming, the CC1 can easily steam enough milk for 2 drinks at a time, and then brew a pair of doubles, back to back without recovery delay.
The Preciso works great for both espresso, and drip pour over. You can get the Esotto which integrates a scale into the Preciso, but I just use a stand alone food scale right next to my Preciso.
I would get both of these products again, in a heartbeat.
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 1:27pm Subject: Re: Advice sought - Espresso Setup with grinder up for about $800-$1200
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
OK, to the best of my knowledge, none of these grinders exist.
There is the Baratza Vario, that features micromental adjustments, and grinds by time (set through a digital display, divided into 0.1 second increments), either into a bin or directly into your portafilter.
There is the Baratza Preciso, that features stepped adjustments, and grinds by time (set by a dial), either into a bin or directly into your portafilter.
There is the Baratza Virtuoso The CC1 / grinder deal at SCG makes it a really attractive deal and basically $400 less than the Silvano. It seems to me that the PID and thermoblock will get me a long way to the features that will matter most for taste.
If you can, I'd skip the Virtuoso -- grab the Vario if it fits in the budget, and if not, grab the Preciso.
Oops. Late night typo: I meant that I'm choosing between the Virtuoso Preciso and the Vario.
I seem to get mixed opinions ranging from "the Preciso is excellent for espresso" to "definitely go for the Vario". One thing steering me toward the Preciso is that I'll probably use it for my non-espressos as well (drip and press pot) and I've read that it's actually better than a Vario for non-espresso. So, what (in espresso cup quality) will the Virtuoso give me for the extra cost? Am I likely to notice the difference with one of these grinders compared to the Breville for NON-espresso coffee? What, will a $1200-$1400 dollar machine give me (other than faster steam and great looks) that a PID + thermoblock (like Silvano or CC1) won't give me? (I'm not being argumentative, just trying to clarify). Thanks again!
I can spend $1800 if I deem it worth the cost, but I'd have to argue with myself a lot to convince me that I'll get a significantly better taste then from a CC1 + Preciso for $900.
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 4:58pm Subject: Re: Advice sought - Espresso Setup with grinder up for about $800-$1200
Not sure about the Vario - Preciso question - I have used both and depending on the coffee there isn't much difference - some roasts that go more to the chocolate covered cherry taste come out ahead by a little bit on flat burrs in general while brighter lemony roasts (many popular single origins are like this) will develop better with conical burrs. There are likely many exceptions - my grinder 68mm conical burrs can bring out chocolates as well as my 64mm flat burr grinder, ans my flat burr grinder hasn't met a lemony bean it does not like, so there are exceptions but these are usually more expensive than the Preciso and Vario.
For espresso, I like my Silvano but for perspective I liked the LM Strada better. A friend of mine uses an Electra 60's series which makes very nice milk and espresso - could float a boat on the espresso shots it could bang out in a row even, but I usually drink only one or two shots a day. I like very much what I get to drink using my machine and I like the efficiency too.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 5:50pm Subject: Re: Advice sought - Espresso Setup with grinder up for about $800-$1200
EricBNC Said:
Not sure about the Vario - Preciso question - I have used both and depending on the coffee there isn't much difference - some roasts that go more to the chocolate covered cherry taste come out ahead by a little bit on flat burrs in general while brighter lemony roasts (many popular single origins are like this) will develop better with conical burrs. There are likely many exceptions - my grinder 68mm conical burrs can bring out chocolates as well as my 64mm flat burr grinder, ans my flat burr grinder hasn't met a lemony bean it does not like, so there are exceptions but these are usually more expensive than the Preciso and Vario.
For espresso, I like my Silvano but for perspective I liked the LM Strada better. A friend of mine uses an Electra 60's series which makes very nice milk and espresso - could float a boat on the espresso shots it could bang out in a row even, but I usually drink only one or two shots a day. I like very much what I get to drink using my machine and I like the efficiency too.
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 6:05pm Subject: Re: Advice sought - Espresso Setup with grinder up for about $800-$1200
I know right? 15 grand for a whopper of an espresso machine - If I won the lottery it would be like that faucet commercial - I would show up at some architect's office with a picture and say "design me a house around this machine." Till then the Silvano is great for me.
I use my Preciso for most everything coffee related. I can tell dialing in for espresso if I will like beans at a given temp or dose with minimal retention and great speed using the Preciso. The other grinders sometimes accent a little heavier a certain nuance or reveal something the Preciso does not, but this is not the case with every blend. I find most of them taste very nice using the Preciso.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Either the Vario or the Preciso. Pass on the Virtuoso.
BarryR Said:
I seem to get mixed opinions ranging from "the Preciso is excellent for espresso" to "definitely go for the Vario". One thing steering me toward the Preciso is that I'll probably use it for my non-espressos as well (drip and press pot) and I've read that it's actually better than a Vario for non-espresso. So, what (in espresso cup quality) will the Virtuoso give me for the extra cost?
Barry? Of these three, the Virtuoso is LEAST expensive. Then comes the Preciso, The Vario is the MOST expensive. I am not sure what you mean by "the extra cost" of the Virtuoso . . .
BarryR Said:
What, will a $1200-$1400 dollar machine give me (other than faster steam and great looks) that a PID + thermoblock (like Silvano or CC1) won't give me?
Barry, a part of this is all up to you. (Well, let's be serious: it's ALL up to you!) I outlined above why I personally wouldn't purchase a CC1 . . . yet. At the very least, I'd wait for the report from the CG Road Trip. Do you wish to buy once and never again, or do you think you'll eventually want to upgrade?
Part of the issue is also the thermoblock. There are thermoblock machines with great reliability, and others with -- well, let's just say that (again) personally I'm extremely hesitant when it comes to thermoblock machines in terms of maintenance and power. But thats me. YMMV.
I spent a long time with SBDU machines, and now own three HX machines¹ and one open boiler design². (For more on the different types of machines, look here.) It isn't a matter of "faster steam and great looks." After all, some HX machines are weak steamers, and not all have great looks; that's, after all, in the eye of the beholder, is it not? But -- generally -- you do get more powerful steam and the ability to crank out espresso after espresso of very high quality and to do so very consistently.
Cheers, Jason
¹ Elektra "Sixties" T1, Ala di Vittoria "La Valentina," and an Olympia Express "Cafferex." ² Arrarex Caravel.
Posted Wed Apr 25, 2012, 3:40pm Subject: Re: Advice sought - Espresso Setup with grinder up for about $800-$1200
The trigger has been pulled! It came down to 1) Silvano: possibly better build quality, looks nicer. $300 more with package (and without naked portafilter). or 2) CC1.
As a first set-up I decided the extra $$ wasn't worth it. If I become a major geek, I may end up upgrading if not, I think I'll be good with the CC1. SCG speak very well of the machine and deny any quality problems. Chris Coffee obviously had issues. Both are reputable vendors so who knows.
Grinder: Preciso - I'm pretty sure it'll meet my needs and it'll serve me well for my non-espressos as well.
Thanks everyone for the advice and for all the great info available here.
PS: I ordered 1 lb of Velton's Bonsai and 1 lb of Veltons Three Ravens Decaf. I home roast, but I want to be sure I get an idea of pulling shots with a coffee that I know is good for espresso.
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