calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,669 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Thu Apr 19, 2012, 5:44am Subject: Re: looking to buy my first espresso/grinder, need some advice
Acrobat Said:
From the research I've gathered from this site its opened our eyes to places like Starbucks, I know a large percentage of you think all their drinks are crap and they very well may be crap but my wife really likes them. I think its important to keep in mind that or expectations aren't as high as most of you, over time that might change but right now we would both be happy with drinks at the "Starbucks" level. thanks again for all the good input. Acrobat
Your welcome. The Starbucks level of quality is a very low bar to set. It should be VERY easy to beat, even with very basic equipment. This is due to the fact that they have a very high turnover of staff and they have placed their "quality control" in superautomatic machines. The best you will get from a Superautomatic (a machine that does everything for you and all you do is push a button) is OK, even from multi thousand dollar commercial machines.
This is because the machine can only do what it was programmed to do and it can not adjust for moment to moment changes... that happen all the time.
Starbucks is a place that many people start their coffee journey from, and they deserve the credit for raising the bar from "gas station" quality coffee that used to be the standard. They started out as a single shop, that had high quality and a passion for "doing it right" but they have grown too big and consessions need to be made for the sheer volume that they go through. They are the Mc Donnalds of the coffee world. They are on every corner and you know what you are going to get and it will be the same from store to store but it is not a place you would go to impress anyone with dinner.
Think of it this way, even with a most basic BBQ, you can make a MUCH better hamburger at home than you would EVER get at Mc Donnalds and without much, if any, work.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
YES, it's an SBDU* machine, but I used an SBDU for 25 years before moving up to an HX. Had I known then what I know know, I would have made that switch a long time ago -- but so what? I was happy for a long time, and then moved on (up). Keep in mind that, once you have your own setup, the quality of your drinks will very quickly surpass Starbucks, but while you don't have to spend thousands, but you do need to spend something. The above link is to a setup that is more than $600, but under $700 -- so it's slightly over your $600 figure. (Sorry.)
Cheers, Jason
* For a quick description on various machine types, click HERE.
ccolton Senior Member Joined: 23 Jan 2012 Posts: 132 Location: Wilmington DE Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Bezzera BZ07 Grinder: Le 'lit PL53
Posted Thu Apr 19, 2012, 7:27am Subject: Re: looking to buy my first espresso/grinder, need some advice
Hi Acrobat,
CalBlackSmith makes a great point here. Over the past 2-3 months, while I was trying to decide upon a new machine, he has given me considered and wise guidance; one of the things I mentioned, trepidatiously, was that I, like you, loved *$, and would be pleased to recreate their espresso drinks in my home. His reply, along with those of others who have provided exceptional help to me and are providing it in this thread, was something along the lines of, well, it's not a hang-your-head-in-shame kinda thing..." I was amused by the comment and thankful that I wasn't taken to task for having made it. In retrospect, I can't believe that I ever even drank *$! As Jason says, I have joined the darkside and thankfully so! My point is, unless you have already tried the coffee beans and extraction methods recommended on this site, which I had not, you will soon be setting your "bar' a lot higher.
calblacksmith Said:
Your welcome. The Starbucks level of quality is a very low bar to set. It should be VERY easy to beat, even with very basic equipment.
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,314 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Thu Apr 19, 2012, 12:49pm Subject: Re: looking to buy my first espresso/grinder, need some advice
The used deals - they are out there. Right now there is a 2 year old gaggia classic and a Baratza Virtuoso for $280 in Salem. I would want the grinder one up from this one but this sounds like a good starter deal to me. Virtuoso is good for drip and can do espresso but doesn't have as many steps as the one up from it or the vario (2 steps up) that I have.
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,314 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Thu Apr 19, 2012, 7:11pm Subject: Re: looking to buy my first espresso/grinder, need some advice
There was an great little Bezzera the other day in Portland that looked great at a good price but someone must have bought. Anyway, there are more for sale right now than there were at Christmas.
The Gaggia has all the little things you need to get started like tamper, knock box etc. That stuff adds up.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
Acrobat Senior Member Joined: 16 Apr 2012 Posts: 7 Location: Eugene Expertise: Just starting
Posted Thu Apr 19, 2012, 9:52pm Subject: Re: looking to buy my first espresso/grinder, need some advice
I'm scheduled to go take a look a Gaggia tomorrow. I was hoping to get a nicer machine but it does seem like a good deal and the grinder is what I was looking at anyhow. My question is should I hold out for a nicer machine or is this such a good deal that I shouldn't Pass it up?
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,314 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Thu Apr 19, 2012, 10:26pm Subject: Re: looking to buy my first espresso/grinder, need some advice
Well, first off, I would want the Preciso after having used a Virtuoso grinder. The deal depends on how good of shape it is all in. Two years should be pretty good shape but you will need to look at it inside and out. My water is pretty soft, I don't know about salem's water. Ask him what water he used and his clean/maintenance routine was and his answer should tell you something. Ask how often shots were pulled and how he liked that grinder. I believe it would be harder to dial in with bigger steps. Remember he is trying to sell but people will often tell you the truth if you ask the right questions. (it is all about the details) Bring a thermometer and make sure it heats up. Look for rust or leaks inside. (flashlight helps) Check the date on the machine tag also. Even with no leaks you can still have problems with a 2 year old machine. I have had to replace the pump, clean a valve and I will probably have to replace the pstat sooner rather than later.
New the classic is just under 400 and the Virtuoso grinder is 200. So you are getting 600 + accessories for under 300 at 2 years old. So, just on numbers yes, it is a good starter set up. I would not have told you about it if I thought it was over priced. But if it doesn't look good or act right or you feel the guy selling it is shifty don't get it. I would not spend more than 280-300 on that set up even with the extras. And I would have had to PID any gaggia or silvia out cause I am that kinda girl and I would have had upgraditis pretty fast with either I think. I had my heart set on an Oscar (for steam power) but this gaggia deal would have been tempting when I was first looking. How long you will stay happy with this machine depends on you. Are you a guy that wants a new cell phone every 6 months or not? If you are then pass on this and hold out for what you want. Lots of people keep their gaggias forever and love them. (right not there is not much at -$500 what is it you were wanting?)
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,669 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Apr 20, 2012, 6:53am Subject: Re: looking to buy my first espresso/grinder, need some advice
Nice catch on the Oscar. I have owned both the grinder and an oscar, both are quality and would make a "starter" setup that likely will keep you happy for years.
Oscar is a great starter HX machine and is significantly better than any SBDU I can think of. Oscar does not have a hot water tap but it is easy enough to just steam some water to any temp you want, or just install an empty basket (no coffee) and pull a dose of water through the GH.
The grinder is one that I have at work and it is in the same class as a SJ. I like the adjustment on the MDX a little better but that is not a ding against the SJ which I still own also.
If you can swing the deal (it is above your stated goal for price) you could keep a small party happy with espresso drinks all night with no problem and I have done just that with an Oscar! That one has had the vacuum breaker mod so it is ready to run on a timer to be ready to go when you wake up and want to pull some shots to get the eyes open and the blood pumping!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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