Posted Thu Apr 26, 2012, 8:47am Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
What is the priority? Does it HAVE to be espresso, or can the priority be "the best cup of coffee possible? You pretty much lost me with the "eye candy" comment. It is not my place to speak for the group, but I have to think that the vast majority here put the quality of the coffee first and looks second.
Grinder: Compak K10-Conic Fresh Brewer: Espro large Press Speed - grind coffee, put coffee in bottom of Espro, pour in hot water. That about it. IMO, best coffee with least amount of effort. Sure, a cheaper grinder (even half the cost or less) would suffice, but this one will look great on the counter and will work well with any future espresso machine you care to buy in the future.
If a built in espresso machine is a priority, then the first things to consider would be length of warranty, availability of extended warranty, possibility of in-home servicing, and/or nearness of service center.
I still stand by my comments about having the carpenter make a matching door for the auto's cubby so when it fails and is replaced with a "real" machine that the space can be used. Also, store that extra door on top of other cabinets so the patina ages equally with the rest of the cabinets so it doesn't look "new" when installed.
You pretty much lost me with the "eye candy" comment. It is not my place to speak for the group, but I have to think that the vast majority here put the quality of the coffee first and looks second.
I mean it only if its going to be on the kitchen counter. Otherwise it has to fit in a tray with the afformentioned dimensions.
Grinder: Compak K10-Conic Fresh Brewer: Espro large Press Speed - grind coffee, put coffee in bottom of Espro, pour in hot water. That about it. IMO, best coffee with least amount of effort. Sure, a cheaper grinder (even half the cost or less) would suffice, but this one will look great on the counter and will work well with any future espresso machine you care to buy in the future.
Ok. Nice idea, but I think I ll give it a serius efford.
If a built in espresso machine is a priority, then the first things to consider would be length of warranty, availability of extended warranty, possibility of in-home servicing, and/or nearness of service center.
I got the message by all that its not a good idea so im looking for a proper grinder - machine combination.
Damat101 Senior Member Joined: 21 Apr 2012 Posts: 8 Location: GREECe Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2012, 1:54pm Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
Not all of us have our espresso machines in our kitchen, and few (if any) of us go into the garage. Some have them set up in a dedicated espresso "area" -- for example, in a corner somewhere out of the way of the working areas of the kitchen (i.e.: countertops and food prep areas); some have them set up on a steel or wooden table in the breakfast room, or even the den; some have them as part of a wet bar . . . I even know of one person who has their setup upstairs in the Master Bedroom! So the requirement that you "don't want to have anything on the kitchen counter" is not out of the question.
I dont really have any alternative placement. That said, "eye candy" is in the eye of the beholder. My wife loves the way my espresso machine looks, and gladly "sacrificed" some counter space for it. (See below.) Every situation is different . . . But I'm a bit confused by one thing: what kind of tray
I'm considering asking for a cabinet in the kitchen where ill be able to pull of a tray with the devices on it. Kind of like a drawer mechanism but without the sides front only.
But let me outline a couple of problems: you say you're usually in a rush in the morning (and with three kids under six, that's understandable!), but any machine you get will need time to warm up and achieve a state of thermal stability, whether it's a built-in or freestanding super-auto, a semi-auto, or a manual lever machine. That can be circumvented by having a machine that can be on 24/7 or by having the machine on an inexpensive appliance timer, set to switch on one hour before you get up in the morning.
Good idea. I dont like to have devices left overnigt -carbon footprint considerations- but a q-bus system for digital administration of the electrical installation will probably have some options for programming. So it might not even need a timer device.
My grinder is pretty fast; it doses a double (15 grams) in 3.5 seconds. The time it takes to pull a shot is approximately 25 seconds, and I can steam milk for my wife's latte in less time than that -- that is, I start the shot, go to the freezer, get the milk, steam it, and finish before the shot is done. So the actual making of a coffee takes less than a minute -- add time for a second cup (first for my wife, then for me), setup (pour the milk into the pitchers, place in the freezer while I grind the coffee, do a cooling flush, etc., etc.), cleanup (rinse and dry the pitchers, portafilters, and baskets, flush the group, etc.), and it will take approximately ten minutes -- sometimes as much as 15 -- to make three drinks (toss in one straight shot).
Maybe even less. I get the idea. No it is feasible -although its much more about focus than time in the morning.
1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.) Most of the time I make straight shots for me. single or double. occasionally I make a capuccino for visitors.
2) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at ay one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.) maybe 3 or 4.
3) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.) right now an average could be around 20 drinks per week.
4) Can you plumb a machine directly into the water supply, or do you want/need a pourover machine with its own reservoir?
I can but only if I know sometime soon.
5) Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit?
20-amp also.
6) What is your budget for a new machine? Does that also include a grinder? If not, what is your budget for a grinder?
Yes I need a grinder as well. I suppose I could pay the equivelant of a build-in so maybe $2000 for both. If less even better, obviously.
Damat101 Senior Member Joined: 21 Apr 2012 Posts: 8 Location: GREECe Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2012, 2:23pm Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
Sashas Said:
Well people who don't have time and patience to grind /clean/tamp/clean/pull/clean/drink/clean actions don't have time for forums either. So no, there is no such a thing as super-auto forum because there's simply no need for it.
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,317 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2012, 7:13pm Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
I think just in the last few weeks we have at least 4 threads with super autos. If this was my board I would make them their own section. People come here when they want to buy and have issues.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
I have to build my CG credit somehow and this is a perfect topic for that. And btw I don't ask questions that answer can be found with search engine ;-)
Damat101 Senior Member Joined: 21 Apr 2012 Posts: 8 Location: GREECe Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2012, 11:21pm Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
Coffeenoobie Said:
I think just in the last few weeks we have at least 4 threads with super autos. If this was my board I would make them their own section. People come here when they want to buy and have issues.
You seem to have missed the point: people here have evaluated super-automatics and the like and found them severely lacking! You are better served by a Nespresso machine than a super-auto . . . .
Damat101 Senior Member Joined: 21 Apr 2012 Posts: 8 Location: GREECe Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Sat Apr 28, 2012, 9:11am Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
You seem to have missed the point: people here have evaluated super-automatics and the like and found them severely lacking! You are better served by a Nespresso machine than a super-auto . . . .
I beg to differ. There are a number super autos out there, some of them are not as bad as others and people should be able to form an opinion whitch will be much less informed if the members of coffeegeek are not interested in commenting. Here is an example as a review and as a passage related to the superauto issue by Mark Prince himself.
Furthermore, as an amateur photographer I have theory relating espresso machines with photo cameras:
The transition from film to digital photography had many common with what is happening right now in the world of espresso.
Once upon a time, photography was a craft, only professionals had the means to afford the equipment and where making money out of it. A number of serious amateurs where also there, having similar equipment and they where producing very valuable results some time pieces of art that are still relevant. At some point, compact, pocket machines where introduced to the market targeting the consumer. They produced crappy results, but who cares, Photography was something that everyone was doing some of them with crappy results due to crappy equipment or knowledge. With the introduction of digital photo and due to the very first years of the DSLR there where a number of professionals -very few in the beginning- that argued that although the cameras and the sensors and the overall low level of quality was worth the effort just because it was so easy to work with it. The rest were totally reluctant to embrace the digital technology and wished it to go away. Arguably, the better the professional the strongest the reluctance, obviously because he was pretty satisfied with things as they where.
At some point though, digital cameras where getting better and better, people where embracing them and manufacturers where promoting them and had fights for the market's standardization.
Reminds you of something?
Then, at some point, digital photography became the standard and people stopped arguing that much about it. Of course, film is still out there, and believe it or not some of the most serious creatives are still using it with equipment that cost thousands of $ to produce impeccable results. A number of serious amateurs are into it - but they know exactly what they are doing and why. The rest are happy -as well as all the end consumers to get decent results that are mostly limited not by the equipment but by their knowledge of what to do with it. In most cases it's easier for them to let the cameras to auto and get some mediocre results than to tamper with the settings and go for full manual control of the equipment.
Because in the end, easiness is what most of the technology is promising to its user.
The same thing more or less happened with the vinyl records, is happening now on desktop computers and a number of different things-hobbies-crafts when they where facing critical changes in technology.
I have a close business relationship with one of the biggest grocery retailers in Crete, and Im following closely the sales of coffee, ground, pre grounded, nespresso, iperespresso, Jacob's and a number of other varieties and concepts are showing a huge increase in their sales. And everyone is trying to make it's product the standard. And more importantly, the sales in groceries -that can only mean non experts- are going up-up-up. And I don't thing that all of them are owning thousands- dollars speciality equipment. so all of them are drinking crappy espresso that the super autos might do better. And in the future will do much better still. Because it makes sense for the non-expert to just press a button and enjoy a mediocre drink in a couple of seconds, simply for he doesn't know any better.
So the super autos are here, and most probably are gonna stay with us. With that in mind, in my opinion it goes without saying that every member of a forum like this should much rather for the super autos that use ground coffee are the less of two evils, and are much more positive than the alternative, which is not semi autos or manuals for most of the people, but companies like craft foods that control not only the the kind of coffee you get -once you've purchased one of their evil machines- but the machine's manufacturer as well.
And if the members of the serious coffee communities like homebarrista or coffegeek "can't be bothered" with the super autos, who is gonna shape the market, who is going to put the pressure on the manufacturers to be decent and who is gonna let the people know that there are better and much-much better alternatives? The multinationals like nestle? I don't think so.
Detailed reviews and criticizing in forums is even more important for espresso machines than cameras for example - you can't digitize their product and share it through the net as you do with images or a music recording - so all you get is second-hand experience until you purchase the darn thing and find out it's quirks. Sucks huh? I better find some advice on the net first...
So you (even we) better create a separate section for super autos -it will not only be read by people who are not bothered by them and thus be more efficient for everyone- but it will make the manufacturers be more quality-focused (as opposed to marketing) and it will keep the big coffee brands at bay just a little bit more.
Whats wrong with that my dear friend?
Thanks for reading up to the end of this huge posting. Sorry, I got carried away. My apologies. Thanks.
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,317 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:59am Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
I would be surprised if the big espresso makers did not hop on this trend some day soon, because of the top end of the market would be installing them. However, I still believe the service calls would be pricey.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
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