The water question is interesting. I am on a well with very hard water that goes through a water softener and an RO. but I already see the scale it produces in the kettle so for the BDB.... forget it. The local town has excellent water so I use town RO filtered water (from a local store) with a proportion of straight tap water added as this seems to be the regular recommendation.
Is this the best way to go when taking taste/electronic functioning/scale build up into consideration? or would it be recommended to use straight town water (no RO), and count on the reservoir filter?
OK, here's an update. The first pic is a VST 20g & the second pic is a Breville 18g. To be honest the Breville 18g has holes that are "rounder". The Breville basket is a used one I just "cleaned" & the VST is brand new. You guys be the judge as to the Breville quality.
Thanks Phil, Can you please post some similar pictures that show more than the silhouette? It may be enlightening to see a well-lit hole profile shape through the thickness, rather than a surface image (and maybe not). A silhouette can be misleading in terms of "roundness" as displayed in those images.
I've never said the Breville was poor quality, just that VST uses different technology and has certain quality claims that are patented (pending, I think). Some evidence of the difference may be inferred by Phil's comment that Breville is less sensitive to dose while we know that VST is quite dose-dependant.
Dose-dependant flow behaviour is a two-edged sword. I like it because I always weigh the dose so I can alter flow and taste by making small adjustments to dose on the fly. In fact, I have not adjusted the Robur grind setting in months. Others may find it cumbersome to require so much accuracy for the dose.
I apologize if anyone inferred that I had directly compared Breville to VST (when the previous comparison was Breville to old-style Synesso, not VST). I've compared VST to several other baskets side-by-side including the previous Synesso, but I've not had that opportunity with the Breville basket. I do believe that the Breville basket isn't as heavy as the VST and if so then it cannot use the same process for the holes.
Sadly, some would prefer to be cynical rather than closely examine for themselves. I'm not at liberty to completely describe the precise nature of the features that could cause a silhouette image to be misleading, as it may be proprietary. Let's just say that the world looked flat to those standing on it until a better perspective was available.
Sorry for my delayed response, I have been out of town at a conference all week.
It turns out that strong magnification shows that VST basket holes have a less uniform shape than Breville basket holes. What are we to make of this fact in light of (unsupported) claims to the contrary?
JonR10 Said:
I've never said the Breville was poor quality, just that VST uses different technology and has certain quality claims that are patented (pending, I think).
"Quality claims" aren't patentable, methods and mechanisms are. You can't get a patent for "quality," only for a method of achieving it, whatever "quality" is. I have four patents, so I know something about the patent system.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
snap out the plastic insert (can use a corkscrew to get it out), get a rancilio spring clip for 2 dollars (seattlecoffeworks has them), and buy an 18 gram VST ridged basket (criss coffee has them) . It snaps easlily in and out. You will get great shots..
I got my BDB today from Amazon and check the serial number - first four is 1149 - so I guess I don't have the OPV issue. I would like to remove the plastic insert on the portafilter, but don't know how to do so.
occoffeefan - you mention using a corkscrew - can you please elaborate?
I tried unscrewing the sprout, but it is really on there.... not budging for me.
take a corkscrew, place it in the hold of the plastic insert at an angle and turn feeling the pressure on the plastic insert. It will snap out and a piece may break off (mine did). Now you can use VST baskets that are deeper. Use a ridgeless if you want to keep the breville clip or a ridged if you swap the breville clip for an rancilo
I remember reading somewhere how to test if there is a OPV issue - something with using the double wall single filter with no coffee? What should the max pressure be if I run water through the group?
i just reached in with needle nose pliers and yanked it out. mine didn't break. i could re-use it if i hadn't binned it it.
occoffeefan Said:
get a rancilio spring clip for 2 dollars (seattlecoffeworks has them), and buy an 18 gram VST ridged basket (criss coffee has them) . It snaps easlily in and out. You will get great shots..
do that if your money is irritating you and you simply must be rid of it, or you want to sound cool in your second post in a thread full of newbies. otherwise, the Breville baskets are at least as good if not better than VST's, so you can simply get busy making espresso with what you have and save your money and the hassle.
this notion that you need VST baskets to make great espresso with a BDB is tiresome at best, and a misleading disservice to less experienced BDB'ers at worst--especially since the Breville baskets in particular are extraordinarily good. guys like jon rosenthal (very experienced baritsta without a BDB), and bubbadude/richard (who has a BDB and VST baskets and has switched back to the Breville baskets), can run out and buy VST baskets knowing exactly what they are doing and why, with the knowledge that one is not better than the other, just different. Sometimes you need a Phillips head, sometimes you need an Allen key. One is not better than the other and it is misleading to say otherwise.
It turns out that strong magnification shows that VST basket holes have a less uniform shape than Breville basket holes. What are we to make of this fact in light of (unsupported) claims to the contrary?
As I said, you are looking at a 2D representation of a 3D shape and it is misleading. VST holes are measureably round and checked for size and shape.
Perhaps go back and re-read my previous posts? Even better, look at some under magnification while illuminated...
BubbaDude Said:
"Quality claims" aren't patentable, methods and mechanisms are. You can't get a patent for "quality," only for a method of achieving it, whatever "quality" is. I have four patents, so I know something about the patent system.
Again (again) please re-read previous posts or the VST literature to see what is actually patented. Someone of your obvious intelligence should know by now what the VST claims are. The primary claims are around the quality system....I was simply using that as a descriptor.
You are free to believe whatever you want. But if you are looking for "facts", try using some LIGHT and closely examine the features you so animately want to refute. .
The argument is indeed tiresome. Nobody with any real experience (and some good sense) would suggest that VST baskets are required for making great espresso. If so, what were we making before?
dagoat Said:
...and bubbadude/richard (who has a BDB and VST baskets and has switched back to the Breville baskets), ...
I am under the impression that bubbadude/richard does NOT have any VST baskets or he could have looked at the holes himself and he would know that the unlit pictures don't show that the top and bottom of each VST hole are very round and precisely formed.
With all respect to Phil - I really like you personally and enjoyed meeting you at last year's show here in Houston. I think the BDB is a huge step forward for Breville and I think the machine does a GREAT job with temp stability and the steaming configuration is nice as well. Plus I very much appreciate the attention to quality for the baskets.
BUT - The silhouette images are misleading and I'm hoping that was unintentional. Anyone who looks at those holes magnified and with a light will see what I'm talking about.
There was talk about a BDB road trip review but that has not materialized. I'd like to have a closer look at some BDB baskets for myself to make a direct comparison. Those who have not closely seen BOTH are in no position to judge them against each other. Of course that includes me....so all I can say is that I've seen VST up close.
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