PamelaF Senior Member Joined: 1 May 2012 Posts: 8 Location: Jupiter, FL Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: Mahlkonig K30 Vario
Posted Fri May 4, 2012, 3:44pm Subject: Need Help Finding First (Last) Serious Semi Auto Espresso Machine
Hello! I have spent a lot of time viewing the requisite blogs and videos in my journey to find the right espresso machine. The more I investigate, the greater my list of perceived must-haves grows, and the more I question my perception. I simply wish to purchase the best machine with maximum tweaking flexibility so that I may pull consistently superb espresso/lattes. And I'd rather not spend $6K. And I need the right grinder too. And it should be really, really pretty.
Here is a wish list of the items I'd like:
*Dual boiler (unless HX machine with comparable heat consistency exists) *E61 *PID *Pre infusion *Warm up time as short as possible (for those 5:45am shots) OR good timer *Reliability and availability of parts from manufacturer *Strong steamer *Plumbable (can be an add-on)
Any comments are greatly appreciated, especially if I can do without any items on this list or if I'm missing anything.
One machine which comes to mind is the Izzo Alex Duetto II. Are there others I should consider? If I do get the IAD2, what grinder(s) should I consider? I don't have a set budget, but I aspire to a high value/price ratio (that and becoming a great Latte Artiste).
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,100 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat May 5, 2012, 5:34pm Subject: Re: Need Help Finding First (Last) Serious Semi Auto Espresso Machine
Pamela, welcome to CG . . .
PamelaF Said:
Hello! I have spent a lot of time viewing the requisite blogs and videos in my journey to find the right espresso machine. The more I investigate, the greater my list of perceived must-haves grows, and the more I question my perception.
Timer. Any machine in the class you are seeking will need serious warm-up time, unless you leave it on 24/7. A timer solves that problem by switching the machine on 60-90 minutes before you arise in the morning.
PamelaF Said:
*Reliability and availability of parts from manufacturer
Does that mean that you want a machine that can be plumbed in later but will be used off a reservoir now, or that you will be plumbing in the machine (or running it off a Flo-Jet)?
Now, some additional questions for you: 1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.) 2) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at ay one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.) 3) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.) 4) Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit? 5) We know you don't want to spend $6K on the machine, but what is your budget for a new machine? Does that also include a grinder? If not, what is your budget for a grinder?
The more information we get from you, the better and more specific our suggestions can be. Certainly two out of the three machines mentioned so far are quite good -- the Izzo Alex Duetto II and the Vibiemme Double Domobar Manual Stainless Version 3. There is every reason to expect that the Rocket double boiler will be a fine machine, but it is brand new and no one has it yet.
Then again, there's always the new Elektra T1 . . .
Keep in mind that -- in the cup, where it counts -- there is no difference between a DB and an HX. Each has "maximum tweaking flexibility," as you put it, albeit differently. It's easier to tweak your brewing temperature on-the-fly, as it were, with an HX, whereas with a PID-controlled DB, you would have to adjust the setting and then wait for the machine to re-stabilize at the new temperature. OTOH, you can walk up to the DB straight away and pretty much pull the shot while half-asleep -- well, not so asleep that you aren't paying attention. The "Four M's of Espresso still come into play.
As far as grinders are concerned, much depends upon how much room you have, and -- again -- your budget. I confess I love my Mahlkönig K30 Vario, but it might be a bit much for some. Many people swear by the Mahlkönig Pro-M Espresso Grinder, for a bit less. Or you can look at something like the Compak K10 Fresh or the Mazzer Major-E. For a great grinder with an extremely small footprint, check out the Baratza Vario or Baratza Vario-W. Or, you can always go the route of a used Mazzer Super Jolly or Mazzor Major, and buy a new set of burrs . . .
PamelaF Senior Member Joined: 1 May 2012 Posts: 8 Location: Jupiter, FL Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: Mahlkonig K30 Vario
Posted Sat May 5, 2012, 11:10pm Subject: Re: Need Help Finding First (Last) Serious Semi Auto Espresso Machine
Hi, Jason...
My husband and I have owned a Nespresso machine and have been drinking mostly cappuccino. We have been increasingly dissatisfied with the quality of their coffee/machine. I recently was served the most delicious latte at a schmancy steakhouse - unbelievably strong and full bodied with absolutely no hint of bitterness! We tend to drink cappuccino and latte, but if the coffee is great, I love espresso.
I plan on buying new. FloJet will be fine for now, but we plan on moving in the not-too-distant future, and I'd like the option to plumb later. Average 4 doubles at a time, 30 doubles per week. I have a 15 amp circuit available and may have a 20 (have to check with my better half). I'm no electrician, but it appears that we have a bunch of unassigned GFI switches, and several with "20" stamped on them. As far a budget goes, I'd like to keep the machine and grinder under 4K. No space constraint issues.
Now about the grinder - how would you compare the K30 Vario with the Baratza Vario grinders? I understand the grinder is of the utmost importance, more so than the espresso machine. Am I better off going with one of the more expensive grinders and a HX or the Baratza Vario/DB?
diggi Senior Member Joined: 28 Nov 2011 Posts: 383 Location: Halifax, NS Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Spaz vivaldi S1 V2 Grinder: B Vario, OE LIDO Drip: Chemex, Espro Press,... Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Sun May 6, 2012, 2:47am Subject: Re: Need Help Finding First (Last) Serious Semi Auto Espresso Machine
PamelaF Said:
Now about the grinder - how would you compare the K30 Vario with the Baratza Vario grinders? I understand the grinder is of the utmost importance, more so than the espresso machine. Am I better off going with one of the more expensive grinders and a HX or the Baratza Vario/DB?
Pamela, Well informed questions. The db vs hx debate is one where there is no winner. Both have advantages. Hx gives you more control if you plan on switching beans regularly each day and playing with different temps on different pulls and is cheaper. The DB is easier to get a consistent temp. Probably what the 'typical' home user is looking for, but costs more. Both work well. A purist will say, always get the more expensive grinder. Of course that has to be balanced with what you want in your machine. If you want the slightly easier working of the DB w/ PID over HX then that will tell you what is left for the grinder. The nice thing about the B. vario is that it is built specifically for a home grinder. It has a small footprint and gives a grind quality that equals more expensive grinders. But it is built with cheaper part and less durable. However; commercial grinders are overbuilt for home use and as many here will say, will last forever. They will go on to work long before you leave this world, so really the B. vario is about the build quality that is really required for home use. If you are new to this obsession, starting with the B. vario is likely sufficient, but bigger is better. So, like you say; either the hx with more expensive grinder, or DB with b.vario. those are excellent choices and many would envy being in the position to choose between the two. There are perks about each set up, but either combination will give you equipment to make excellent espresso.
OOOPS. I think I went a bit over budget if you get everything new. However, I really like the Vario W have. I like dosing right into my basket by weight.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,100 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun May 6, 2012, 10:40am Subject: Re: Need Help Finding First (Last) Serious Semi Auto Espresso Machine
Pamela,
Well, certainly, the most basic of (true) espresso machines will beat the proverbial pants off a Nespresso machine . . . and most here would be very surprised to hear that the most delicious latte you've ever had was in a restaurant -- see Restaurant Espresso Experience for but one discussion of this aspect of coffee-making -- but this, too, is easily surpassed at home.
In attempting to focus your needs a bit more sharply, you are left -- first and for most -- with the famous "HX v. DB" debate, and as Devin has already said, this is a debate with no winner. In your initial post, you mentioned you want "the best machine with maximum tweaking flexibility" but also that you want to "pull consistently superb espresso/lattes." The first quote makes me lean to an HX, as it is more "readily tweakable" -- on the fly, as it were. In other words, your brewing temperature is more easily and more rapidly adjustable. This is great if, as Devin said, you plan on switching beans and/or playing around with different temperatures. For example, I do not really play around with various temperatures, but I frequently pull two different beans/blends -- my "regular" from Red Bird, and a "special" single-origin espresso. The latter will change from time-to-time, but I generally stick with Red Bird Espresso for my daily shots. Still, I have an HX (see below). But there are certainly people here who may have three, four or even five different coffees at hand requiring different temperatures . . . for them, I'd say an HX is essential.
On the other hand, if you do not intend on switching beans and/or experimenting with different temps, a DB will be more of a consistent "walk-up-and-pull" experience. But, as I said above, there is no difference in terms of the quality in the cup -- and that is the ultimate goal, right?
PamelaF Said:
Am I better off going with one of the more expensive grinders and a HX or the Baratza Vario/DB?
The bottom line here, Pamela, is that any number of machines in this price range will fit your needs, as will any number of grinders. No one size fits all; no one machine (or grinder) is better than all the rest.
If you look at the Izzo Alex II machines, both the HX and the DB have an internal reservoir and a simple switch to convert them to a plumb-in model . . . and back again. The Rocket DB, that Randy mentioned, should be a great machine -- going by past performance of Rocket's HX models, like the Rocket Giotto Evoluzione -- but appears to be plumb-in only, so a Flo-Juet system will be needed. Quick Mill also is coming out with a DB model, but it appears to be pourover only, unlike the Quick Mill Andreja Premium, which is a pourover but with an optional direct connection kit.
In terms of a grinder, any of the ones I've mentioned above will be excellent. The Baratza Vario is the least expensive, as well as being the smallest. I've never had a problem with mine (look on the right side of the photo below), and the customer service is excellent. Any questions about the grinder have to do more with longevity. (It's often said, for example, that a Mazzer is built like a tank and your grandchildren will be using it.) The Mahlkönig K30 Vario is the quietest and fastest grinder I've ever seen/used. Etc., etc., etc.
There is a similar debate over grinders, and that is large flat burr sets v. large conical burr sets. The prevailing wisdom is that the "titan grinders" are superior, and that may be true in a commercial setting under constant use, but I've become convinced that it matters little in a home setting. Rather, each format emphasizes a different aspect of the bean -- conicals produce a "brighter" shot, with more acidity and high notes; flat burrs produce a richer, deeper shot with more bass notes. It's more a matter of personal preference, IMHO, than quality.
Posted Sun May 6, 2012, 3:30pm Subject: Re: Need Help Finding First (Last) Serious Semi Auto Espresso Machine
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
The Rocket DB, that Randy mentioned, should be a great machine -- going by past performance of Rocket's HX models, like the Rocket Giotto Evoluzione -- but appears to be plumb-in only, so a Flo-Juet system will be needed.
Posted Sun May 6, 2012, 7:22pm Subject: Re: Need Help Finding First (Last) Serious Semi Auto Espresso Machine
Hey Pamela:
Welcome!! To CG, this site and all the great folks here will provide a never ending resource of assistance, encouragement, and information. It's really exciting to enter the world of espresso at a relatively high level, and I think your in for a lot of fun.
I hate (not really) to muck things up a bit... but just for fun take a look Here.
Let me know if you have any interest in walking down this path.
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