Mattpitts74 Senior Member Joined: 14 May 2012 Posts: 3 Location: London Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia classic Grinder: Vario
Posted Mon May 14, 2012, 3:55pm Subject: Upgrade recommendations from gaggia classic
Hi
I've had a gaggia classic for several years and have recently purchased a vario grinder. I'm now looking to upgrade my gaggia classic.
I have been reading lots around the rockets, but they are really more than I would like to spend. I then came across and old review of the isomac Zaffiro, which had a great review in 2003. Which is a long time along. I was wondering what other alternatives there are these days.
One thing apart from the price that puts me off the rockets a little is the whole temperature issues and the need to flush them every time you pull a shot. From the zaffiro review I see that single boilers need less of this.
However I do generally make latte and americanos, so looking a HX machines.
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,313 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon May 14, 2012, 9:37pm Subject: Re: Upgrade recommendations from gaggia classic
Almost all machines will need a flush to heat the group or cool the lines if sitting a while. A single boiler is not an upgrade, IMO. You would look at doubles or heat exchanges. Heat exchangers need a cooling flush because of the way they work. It is a very effective and efficient way to heat the water and so a lot of commercial machines use this and as commercial machines are designed to be on and pumping out the shots they don't have to cool them when pulling back to back shots. At home we are often letting them sit so must flush.
Doubles have one for steam and one for the group head. So two heating elements. I understand you flush the as well.
Coffeenoobie
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NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,604 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 1:01am Subject: Re: Upgrade recommendations from gaggia classic
The Isomac Zaffiro is a SBDU with an E61 look alike brew head. So it's not really an upgrade from your Gaggia Classic. Like you said yourself, you ought to be looking for a HX (or DB) machine.
The Nuova Simonelli Oscar or Isomac Tea would be entry level HX. The QuickMill Silvano is a SBDU with an addititional thermoblock and a second pump for steaming, which allows simultaneous brewing espresso and frothing milk.
Cooling flushes are to HXs a bit like temperature surfing to SBDUs. It's mandatory, because the brew group tends to overheat, when the machine is left idling. By the way, you don't need to flush before each and every shot. You can pull several shots in a row without flushing. Only when the machine was left alone for more than five minutes.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,632 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 5:38am Subject: Re: Upgrade recommendations from gaggia classic
It is really just the water that overheats when idle. The water in the HX system heats to the same temp as the steam boiler (it is heated BY the steam boiler) if left standing. A quick flush of this water from the system brings things back to normal. A HX machine can pull shot after shot without a flush and with very good temp stability between shots as long as you stay in the "work zone" for the system. You have the ability to slow down the work cycle by adjusting the Pstat to a lower temp but this is really not need and once set, the Pstat never really ever needs to be adjusted. If you want a warmer shot, just do not flush as much from an idle condition and the shot will be warmer. If you want a normal shot, just flush until you you hear the water stop flashing to steam in the flush and you are back to the normal system balance and shot after shot will be at your desired temp. The time between flushes (you need to flush EVERY machine to clear the spent grounds from the brew group) really is different for each machine and how it is setup. A blanket 5 min might or might not be correct for your particular machine, for mine, it is not 5 min. I just clear the grounds from the GH in my normal work flow and all is well.
The cooling flush is not like temp surfing as the flush returns the system to "normal" balance. The temp surf is playing games with the heating element to try to catch it on or off for a period of time so that you have some sort of a chance to hit the temp you want to get as the click thermostat has a very wide swing in the deadband, some upwards of 20F deg. The temp surf is a procedure in which you try to guess the dead band, the time the heater is on or off to guess the swing of the water in the boiler to achieve the desired temp. A PID can remove this swing/temp surfing from the equation.
As to the brew group heating up, I do not see that, my E61 idles at 202.4 when left standing for prolonged periods, hardly overheated.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,604 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 5:50am Subject: Re: Upgrade recommendations from gaggia classic
calblacksmith Said:
It is really just the water that overheats when idle. The water in the HX system heats to the same temp as the steam boiler (it is heated BY the steam boiler) if left standing. A quick flush of this water from the system brings things back to normal ...
As to the brew group heating up, I do not see that, my E61 idles at 202.4 when left standing for prolonged periods, hardly overheated.
Thanks for this explanation, Wayne. I guess, technically speaking it's more correct to say the water in the HX line overheats inside the steam boiler. It would take a tremendous flush to cool down an overheated solid E61 brew head using only slightly colder, but still hot water.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
Standard Questions: 1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.) 2) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at ay one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.) 3) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.) 4) Can you plumb a machine directly into the water supply, or do you want/need a pourover machine with its own reservoir? 5) Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit? You're in London; skip this question. 6) What is your budget for a new machine? Does that also include a grinder? If not, what is your budget for a grinder?
Mattpitts74 Senior Member Joined: 14 May 2012 Posts: 3 Location: London Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia classic Grinder: Vario
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 8:53am Subject: Re: Upgrade recommendations from gaggia classic
Standard Questions: 1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.) 2) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at ay one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.) 3) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.) 4) Can you plumb a machine directly into the water supply, or do you want/need a pourover machine with its own reservoir? 5) Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit? You're in London; skip this question. 6) What is your budget for a new machine? Does that also include a grinder? If not, what is your budget for a grinder?
I generally make expresso's and latte's
I normally make between 2 and 4 drinks at one time
I would make around 30 drinks over a week
I like the idea of having the plump option for the future, but its not essential
The rocket espresso giotto evoluzione is pretty much at the top of my budget, and I do already have the vario grinder, but i was hoping there might be a slightly cheaper option.
So what do people think about the rockets? and are there any cheaper alturnatives?
Mattpitts74 Senior Member Joined: 14 May 2012 Posts: 3 Location: London Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia classic Grinder: Vario
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 9:02am Subject: Re: Upgrade recommendations from gaggia classic
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
OK, let's take it from the top . . .
Standard Questions: 1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.) 2) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at ay one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.) 3) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.) 4) Can you plumb a machine directly into the water supply, or do you want/need a pourover machine with its own reservoir? 5) Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit? You're in London; skip this question. 6) What is your budget for a new machine? Does that also include a grinder? If not, what is your budget for a grinder?
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