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Reasons for fast shots other than grinder {Resolved, post#40}
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Reasons for fast...  
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Gig103
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 225
Location: Arizona
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: French press!
Posted Sun Jun 3, 2012, 11:34am
Subject: Re: Reasons for fast shots other than grinder
 

So it's okay to calibrate it to be laboring one notch down on the macro side? Or are you saying that when it's calibrated the way mine is, it should be pulling shots with the macro one down?

Because this morning I'm getting a 22 second shot but it's between 1A and 1G (neither chokes the machine). The rest of you seem to work with 2-something.
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germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,141
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sun Jun 3, 2012, 2:26pm
Subject: Re: Reasons for fast shots other than grinder
 

Gig103 Said:

So it's okay to calibrate it to be laboring one notch down on the macro side? Or are you saying that when it's calibrated the way mine is, it should be pulling shots with the macro one down?

Because this morning I'm getting a 22 second shot but it's between 1A and 1G (neither chokes the machine). The rest of you seem to work with 2-something.

Posted June 3, 2012 link

I just checked where the laboring starts on mine. Understand there is a little overlap when moving the macro, so when going from 2a to 1w the grinder is not 1 micro click finer. When on macro 2 I begin to hear slight motor labor around micro h when switched to macro 1w there is no labor until I slide up to O. I am only at a slightly finer calibration then it seems you are. How I have fine tuned my calibration by grinding 14g doubles of city roast and still being on macro 2 and getting 28sec pulls at micro B-C. A 24g triple will chock my machine if micro goes lower then K for most beans.

The danger of setting fine like me is if by mistake the macro gets put on 1 and the micro A-D, this could make the burrs touch to much. Also my Vario is a dedicated espresso grinder so I do not care about French press coarseness, I have a Preciso for those grinds.
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takeshi
Senior Member
takeshi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 963
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto 3.0
Grinder: Super Jolly
Roaster: Amaya Roasting
Posted Mon Jun 4, 2012, 9:12am
Subject: Re: Reasons for fast shots other than grinder
 

germantownrob Said:

So other then grind fineness there is dose and poor distribution that can result in quicker times.

Posted June 1, 2012 link

...and stale beans.  2 weeks is close if not already there.
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germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,141
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Jun 4, 2012, 9:40am
Subject: Re: Reasons for fast shots other than grinder
 

takeshi Said:

...and stale beans.  2 weeks is close if not already there.

Posted June 4, 2012 link

+1 but an espresso grinder should be able to grind stale beans no problem to give proper times, just look at 95% of the cafe houses out there.
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Gig103
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 225
Location: Arizona
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: French press!
Posted Mon Jun 4, 2012, 9:50am
Subject: Re: Reasons for fast shots other than grinder
 

germantownrob Said:

I just checked where the laboring starts on mine. Understand there is a little overlap when moving the macro, so when going from 2a to 1w the grinder is not 1 micro click finer. When on macro 2 I begin to hear slight motor labor around micro h when switched to macro 1w there is no labor until I slide up to O. I am only at a slightly finer calibration then it seems you are. How I have fine tuned my calibration by grinding 14g doubles of city roast and still being on macro 2 and getting 28sec pulls at micro B-C. A 24g triple will chock my machine if micro goes lower then K for most beans.

The danger of setting fine like me is if by mistake the macro gets put on 1 and the micro A-D, this could make the burrs touch to much. Also my Vario is a dedicated espresso grinder so I do not care about French press coarseness, I have a Preciso for those grinds.

Posted June 3, 2012 link

See, that's why I'm worried about my machine. If I'm calibrated near your setting, but I can't choke my machine all the way at 1A, and you are pulling shots at 1W/2B.
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germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,141
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Jun 4, 2012, 10:21am
Subject: Re: Reasons for fast shots other than grinder
 

Gig103 Said:

See, that's why I'm worried about my machine. If I'm calibrated near your setting, but I can't choke my machine all the way at 1A, and you are pulling shots at 1W/2B.

Posted June 4, 2012 link

Don't worry too much, what I consider a laboring sound and you consider may be slightly different. Calibrate the Vario a little finer give a try, repeat if need be. The reason I even mentioned any caution is on my old Vario I had it adjusted so fine that if on macro 1 and sliding finer past K my burrs rubbed.

I also suggest going to the Bartza website and going through the Vario troubleshooting. Pull your top burr and clean out just incase some debris is keeping the burrs from adjusting then reassemble. I know it is frustrating but Baratza will take care of you if this problem can't easily be fixed. They where kind enough to let me upgrade my old Vario to a W after a couple of years for a price I couldn't refuse.
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naimnut
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2011
Posts: 66
Location: Seattle area
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus II
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Braun Aeromaster
Posted Mon Jun 4, 2012, 12:34pm
Subject: Re: Reasons for fast shots other than grinder
 

Just a minute here.

Here are a couple of comments, hopefully that will deepen the perspective here. Please stick with me, as these comments are all related -

1 - It is irrelevant that Baratza got decent shots with your grinder.
2 - It is irrelevant what settings anyone else has their vario at. The settings will not be identical, because each of us dials in our Varios slightly differently.
3 - The other factors which will make shots too fast are well understood and could be present in your situation - please pardon me if I'm repeating information which you already well understand - but the type of bean, the type of blend, the dose, evenness of distribution and tamp will all affect shot duration.

Given that you have been able to get shots up in the ballpark I suggest you adjust your vario slightly tighter, so that you're starting to hear the machine labor when it is at about 3 on the macro setting. my thought is that your target is to translate your current setting to somewhere in the 3 macro, F micro range. This should mean that you've got LOTS more grind adjustment beyond where you're currently at.

BTW, just for reference, I've got my vario set at right now at 3 macro, F micro. For fresh beans I only do a leveling tamp and use very minimal pressure. The weight of the tamp is almost enough. For beans that are a month old I use about 15 lbs of pressure on the tamp.

My experience is that the Vario will enable you to pull great shots with beans that are well beyond the 15 day optimum range. You might be surprised, I know I was.

From your most recent posts it really sounds like you've almost got your bean/grind/dose/tamp/ shot duration dialed in, so it doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with your equipment.

Best regards,

Mark
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GrantT
Senior Member
GrantT
Joined: 9 Feb 2005
Posts: 692
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Elektra A3
Grinder: HG-One 71mm #002, Macap M4D
Posted Mon Jun 4, 2012, 12:54pm
Subject: Re: Reasons for fast shots other than grinder
 

I don't see any comment on what coffee you are using, how old, etc.

This sounds like an old/stale/dry bean issue to me...

Grant

 
"Wake up and Smell the Coffee"
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Gig103
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 225
Location: Arizona
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: French press!
Posted Mon Jun 4, 2012, 1:21pm
Subject: Re: Reasons for fast shots other than grinder
 

The coffee was frozen at 7 days after roasting, and was in the back of the freezer for 10 days before defrosting. If the freezing arrested the aging, then I still have nearly a week left of 'fresh' coffee.

I tried a bottomless portafilter, with a 20g dose and tamping as hard as I could (enough that my countertop creaked at the seam to the wall), and the stream came together quickly with only had two small, brief spurts. But still this took the grinder being all the way down, and I wasn't sure if I should keep tightening that screw since it sounds labored now.

I appreciate all the help, and I understand what Mark is saying about equipment being different. But I feel that mine is vastly different which worries me.

I sent the videos to Baratza and they asked all the same questions as you have here, so I'll see. Their response was that my machine is already calibrated finer than normal from seeing the video, and it should "easily" choke my machine at 18g. I'll see what they recommend, I may have to move the 'primary calibration' screw back.
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GrantT
Senior Member
GrantT
Joined: 9 Feb 2005
Posts: 692
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Elektra A3
Grinder: HG-One 71mm #002, Macap M4D
Posted Mon Jun 4, 2012, 2:19pm
Subject: Re: Reasons for fast shots other than grinder
 

Gig103 Said:

The coffee was frozen at 7 days after roasting, and was in the back of the freezer for 10 days before defrosting. If the freezing arrested the aging, then I still have nearly a week left of 'fresh' coffee.

Posted June 4, 2012 link

I freeze both fresh-roasted and "stale" Italian espressos purchased from the local Italian market, and get excellent results with both as long I use them within a day or two.  I freeze in very small batches so I remove at most 1-2 days worth.

This does seem similar to an issue I had many years ago with my first Silvia....try as I might, I could not get a decent shot until I did a pressure mod to reduce the pressure down a bit...about 8.5bar.  After doing that, my machine was much more forgiving....but we were talking poor shots taking 20-25seconds, vs good shots taking 20-25 seconds..not massive reductions in extraction time.

Any chance of getting a pressure reading on the espresso machine, or trying a totally different bean/grinder etc?

Has to be bean or grinder if the espresso machine is behaving as designed.

G

 
"Wake up and Smell the Coffee"
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