Markarian Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 474 Location: Seattle Area Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Modded Nuova Simonelli Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Mazzer Super Jolly Drip: Moka, Aeropress, Melitta 102 Roaster: Wear-Ever Popcorn Pumper
Posted Wed Jun 27, 2012, 1:05pm Subject: Brand new to coffee and confused with my Saeco
Okay, so I'm brand new to making espresso. I'm a Seattle area resident who has recently gotten into coffee, and I'm sick of pouring money into my latte habit (same old story, I'm sure). So I originally got a used Mr. Coffee steam "espresso" machine and started making coffee at home. It produced really rich, frothy milk and good, strong coffee with even a tiny bit of crema. However, I wanted to kick it up a notch and wanted to try "real" espresso, especially since I was brewing for others in my house, so I just got a used Saeco Classico on CL. It came with a tamper, non-pressurized PF, two sizes of brew baskets, and pretty much everything else you see in the photo.
While the coffee I make tastes great, I can't often get a consistent crema. I'm using Espresso Roast beans I'm grinding myself at the grocery store on their grinder's "Turkish" setting, which gives me a better hit rate of a good crema. Also, I'm on a low-carb diet, so I'm using a mixture of water and half-and-half instead of milk. On the Mr. Coffee steam moka, the frother worked perfectly every time and I got this rich, foamy lather that I could even do rudimentary latte art in, but with the Saeco, the milk doesn't seem to froth as heavily, though it does get hotter. Can anyone offer me some tips or let me know if there's something obvious I'm doing wrong? I'm hardly ready to give up, but I'm feeling pretty confused and slightly overwhelmed and would rather not waste any more coffee than I have to. Thanks!
Oh, I should also mention I haven't had a chance to buy demitasse cups yet, so I'm using this little plastic container (on top) as it's the only thing that'll fit under the PF. How many ounces should I let it pour into it for each of the two size brew baskets?
Posted Wed Jun 27, 2012, 1:25pm Subject: Re: Brand new to coffee and confused with my Saeco
You should be pouring 1 oz. for the small "single" basket and 2 for the larger "double". Before worrying about anything else re crema, you need a grinder. Not want, need. Getting the right grind for your machine at the store is always going to be a crap shoot, and the coffee will go stale very quickly.
CMIN Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2012 Posts: 511 Location: South FL Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Wed Jun 27, 2012, 1:45pm Subject: Re: Brand new to coffee and confused with my Saeco
The beans in the chutes at the store are already stale, and generally crappy beans anyway. And those grinders the stores use suck, Publix and other stores here use those Bunn and Grindmasters or similar grinders which even their "turkish" setting is too coarse for espresso. Also your machine and other small boilers machines need a decent warmup time including using the steaming function as a lot don't even get to the temp for espresso in general, read up on here on that. I have a bar32 that's similar, and it could make a decent shot for a cheap machine but was tricky.
Get fresh roasted beans (or buy from a good coffee shop as they'll generally stock fresh beans, shouldn't have a problem finding one in Seattle lol). And get a a good grinder, if you don't want to spring for even a used one, get a hand grinder. It can be a pain but even my Hario Slim has nice ceramic burrs and can grind fine enough to choke out high end machines. Was around $30, Kyocera makes one, Porlax etc, all under 100
Markarian Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 474 Location: Seattle Area Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Modded Nuova Simonelli Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Mazzer Super Jolly Drip: Moka, Aeropress, Melitta 102 Roaster: Wear-Ever Popcorn Pumper
Posted Wed Jun 27, 2012, 7:05pm Subject: Re: Brand new to coffee and confused with my Saeco
Wow! Thanks for all the advice, though I have to admit I'm going to have to do more research. I had the opportunity to pick up another machine, this time an Estro Vapore (Starbucks Barista?) for $60. It came with a pressurized portafilter. I tried it out and it really seems to be giving me better results and and much better tasting espresso (drinking the espresso roast turkish ground was especially delicious straight) than the Saeco. So the question I'm pondering is which one to keep?? To complicate matters more, the PF's are interchangeable it seems. Thanks for being patient with a newb.
Posted Wed Jun 27, 2012, 8:56pm Subject: Re: Brand new to coffee and confused with my Saeco
Don't go with the pressurized portafilter. It will give you better results with crappy beans and a bad grind, but it can't match what you can do in the non-pressurized with good coffee. There is only one thing more important than having a grinder (as if the importance of a grinder hasn't already been beaten to death in the responses), and that is the coffee. It's a good sign that you already like what you're getting from your set-up. This just about ensures that your jaw will drop when you get a decent grinder and some good coffee and learn how to pull it well.
A hand grinder is perfect if you're on a budget. Budget wise, you can get the best of the best, the Pharos from OE (barring the HG-One until we know a little more about it), for $250. You just can't beat that, as you'd be spending AT LEAST $250 just to get the same results from a beat-up, used commercial grinder that you would need to put some work into first. But a $40 Skerton will do the trick for now.
But coffee is the most important. If you have a good local roaster, or a shop around you with good coffee, go get it fresh there (fresh is within the first 15 days after it is roasted). Otherwise, you can get it mailed to you. Verve has free shipping, and they're reasonably priced. Redbird is pretty cheap shipping, and they're real cheap and have a great reputation. These are just two good starting points, but there are A TON of great places to get coffee. (just not your grocery store :))
Markarian Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 474 Location: Seattle Area Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Modded Nuova Simonelli Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Mazzer Super Jolly Drip: Moka, Aeropress, Melitta 102 Roaster: Wear-Ever Popcorn Pumper
Posted Wed Jun 27, 2012, 9:12pm Subject: Re: Brand new to coffee and confused with my Saeco
Cool, well since the portafilters are interchangeable, I can do some more experimentation. Being in this area does give me some advantages into getting good coffee, I would think. Another thing I'm trying to figure out is how to steam half-and-half. I'm on a low-carb diet, so milk is right out, as it has too much sugar. With my little toy steam moka machine, I would steam the h/h in the mug first then pour in my shot and it came out very rich and foamy. I steam the h/h on my pump machines and it gets frothy, but the froth stays on the top and I end up pouring out weak steamed h/h underneath it :( Any tips on this?
In the meantime, I'm going to look into that little hand-grinder you mentioned.
Using pre-ground coffee for brewing espresso practically never works right. Apart from going stale within minutes, the chances of getting the right fineness for proper extraction are like winning the lottery.
As far as the crema is concerned, the amount of crema doesn't necessarily correlate to taste. However, it can be sign of freshness and correct extraction of espresso. Crema is an emulsion that occurs when hot water is pressed through finely ground fresh coffee at around 9 bar and the right temperature and forms tiny boubles around carbon dioxide released during extraction. Since older (=stale ) coffee contains less carbon dioxide there's less crema.
What you need are freshly roasted beans and a capable grinder.
+1 for not using a pressurized portafilter. In a pressurized portafilter the plastic device located below the filter basket or its double bottom forces the coffee to pass through small openings, thus generating pressure and creating foamed coffee (bubbles made of air) that has nothing to do with a real crema. It may look like it, but it certainly doesn't taste like it. It's a fake. It's for people who don't want to be bothered with correct grinding and tamping. You'll never get great espresso with it.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
Markarian Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 474 Location: Seattle Area Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Modded Nuova Simonelli Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Mazzer Super Jolly Drip: Moka, Aeropress, Melitta 102 Roaster: Wear-Ever Popcorn Pumper
Posted Thu Jun 28, 2012, 4:59am Subject: Re: Brand new to coffee and confused with my Saeco
NobbyR Said:
+1 for not using a pressurized portafilter. In a pressurized portafilter the plastic device located below the filter basket or its double bottom forces the coffee to pass through small openings, thus generating pressure and creating foamed coffee (bubbles made of air) that has nothing to do with a real crema. It may look like it, but it certainly doesn't taste like it. It's a fake. It's for people who don't want to be bothered with correct grinding and tamping. You'll never get great espresso with it.
But wouldn't you agree that I'm better off with the pressurized PF (I have both kinds) until I can get a good grinder? When I try tamping into the non-pressurized PF with the finest grind I can manage at the store ("Turkish") I still get a weak crema and an inconsistent taste.
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,613 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Fri Jun 29, 2012, 12:44am Subject: Re: Brand new to coffee and confused with my Saeco
Markarian Said:
But wouldn't you agree that I'm better off with the pressurized PF (I have both kinds) until I can get a good grinder? When I try tamping into the non-pressurized PF with the finest grind I can manage at the store ("Turkish") I still get a weak crema and an inconsistent taste.
You probably are. However, you don't really need to tamp with a pressurized PF. You can attribute the weak crema and inconsistent taste to stale coffee.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
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