djackcity Senior Member Joined: 13 Aug 2012 Posts: 5 Location: Los Angeles Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Mon Aug 13, 2012, 5:25pm Subject: Rocket R58 vs. Cellini Evoluzione...?
I'm BRAND new to coffeegeek so please be gentile!
I have a brand new Mazzer Mini, Type A so now it's time to buy an espresso machine. In my research I've grown to like the Rocket machines and I'm now focused on 2 specific models... The R58 (dual boiler) or the Cellini Evoluzione (heat exchanger). I would love some advice!!
I am pretty skilled with espresso drinks and I'd like to buy a machine for home that keeps up. My drinks are almost always milk-based (lattes, cappuccinos, etc.) and I make about 4 cups a day.
I understand that the R58 is a dual boiler and the Cellini is a heat exchanger. Here is a summary of what I've read (I do not profess to be an expert on either machine). So, I need some advice from people who know more than I do, and ideally from someone who has used either or both of these. Here goes...
R58 pros: - I like the idea that I can control temperature - not just consistency between shots but also varying / dialing in on different temps for specific coffees. Does others feel this is important...?
R58 cons: - I am reading mixed reviews complaining about strange noises from one of the pipes - I've read about poor build quality specifically on the drip tray. - I've also read that steam pressure is not quite as powerful on this machine as it is on the heat exchanger - I've read there were issues with one of the pressure gauges that may have just recently been addressed
Cellini pros: - Seems like everyone loves this machine and says it's built very well - I've read that steam power is better for milk - It's perhaps more stable since it's been around longer...?
Cellini cons: - No temperature control
So...help! Perhaps I'm just asking about a heat exchanger vs. a double boiler which I've read about EXTENSIVELY. However, a lot of the blogs/articles I've read are older and may not take into account some of the advancements the R58 and some other machines have made since. I'm curious what people have to say on this. I want to know which machine is going to make the best drinks for the longest amount of time AND will allow me the room to continually improve my skills.
Clancey Senior Member Joined: 8 Aug 2012 Posts: 11 Location: NYC Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Mon Aug 13, 2012, 7:56pm Subject: Re: Rocket R58 vs. Cellini Evoluzione...?
I have heard similar issues about the R58- in fact, some dealers here in the US have stopped shipping the R58 due to the high number of units that have arrived DOA or dammed at a customers door step. Not sure if this is just packaging related or a combination of packaging and the product.
One machine to consider is the Izzo Alex Duetto II Semi Automatic Espresso Machine- had all the features of the R58, and costs A LOT less- also has a fantastic reputation.
If I were looking in this price range, I would get the Izzo or the La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II Espresso Machine. The Vivaldi is not as pretty, but offers great performance. Clive Coffee offers wood panels for the Vivaldi which are really nice.
lozinsky Senior Member Joined: 19 Jun 2012 Posts: 16 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Aug 22, 2012, 3:56pm Subject: Re: Rocket R58 vs. Cellini Evoluzione...?
I recently got a R58 and all I can say is that I am super happy with it. There was no problem with my drip tray, nothing was damaged on arrival. My machine does make some noise when I first turn it on and it is heating up but it is hardly noticeable and goes away after a minute or so. I have noticed that my steam pressure fluctuates a bit, that being said I can steam milk in no time at all, definitely no shortage of steam - I can't really say if the steaming is better or worse than any other machine, all I can say for sure is that it completely satisfies my needs.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,669 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Wed Aug 22, 2012, 4:35pm Subject: Re: Rocket R58 vs. Cellini Evoluzione...?
hi it really is 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other. my personal bias is toward the heat exchanger machine but I would not be opposed to a nice dual boiler either. my personal feeling is that way to much emphasis is placed on getting the temperature with in 1 half of a degree. the general guidelines we recommend is if you like to play with lots of different coffee then a heat exchanger machine likely would be better for you as the temperature adjustment are very quick and on the fly.
we also say that if you stay with the same coffee then the dual boiler with computer controls maybe better for you because you can just set the temperature and forget it.
1 style of machine is not better than the other they both are good just different from each other in the way they work.
I am a big fan of rocket and E C M machines and I own 1 myself.
that is not to say that other machines are not as good because a lot of the differences in this class of machine come down to personal preferences and what is easier for you to use
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Bgosselin Senior Member Joined: 26 Jul 2012 Posts: 51 Location: Canada,quebec Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Aug 22, 2012, 7:49pm Subject: Re: Rocket R58 vs. Cellini Evoluzione...?
I'm probably a lucky one but i had no real problem with my R58 so far. It's a very well built machine in my opinion. The drip tray does make me a bit nervous after seing pictures of damage one. But it's a cellini with two boilers why would it be less robust? I just increase the boiler temperature and feel that it's has good if not better then my mini-Vivaldi for steaming. I order a 4 holes 0.9mm tips from CC. That is the tip I use on the Vivaldi and like it. It would be easier to compare then. It think that the R58 has a killer look.
I've been using a double boiler for 4 years now and that is why I paid extra to get the R58 instead of the Cellini. I knew was to expect. I didn't want to relearn making coffee with the HX.
Are you thinking of plumming it your espresso machine? If not the Mini Vivaldi with it's front water tray is a better design.
The rotary pump of the R58 is almost silent. My Vivaldi make more noise with it's vibration pump.
I've read that the Q67 is not a very good steamer.
djackcity Senior Member Joined: 13 Aug 2012 Posts: 5 Location: Los Angeles Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Fri Aug 24, 2012, 7:25pm Subject: Re: Rocket R58 vs. Cellini Evoluzione...?
WELL...I just got my Rocket R58 and turns out much of what I read on line was true! It showed up DOA. Specifically...
- no brew pressure...water drips VERY slowly from the brew head and no pressure shows on the gauge - the brew pressure gauge was loose and crooked - the steam pressure gauge rests well below 1 bar and continually fluctuates every few seconds - the knobs for the steam and the water were unusually loose (which in my opinion feels poorly constructed)
So I find myself back at square 1. Given that I've already had this experience with the R58, I'm inclined to stay away from a repeat and go for one of the other machines. I don't like that being the case but I guess I'm now considering the Duetto pretty seriously.
CMIN Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2012 Posts: 500 Location: South FL Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Fri Aug 24, 2012, 7:58pm Subject: Re: Rocket R58 vs. Cellini Evoluzione...?
djackcity Said:
WELL...I just got my Rocket R58 and turns out much of what I read on line was true! It showed up DOA. Specifically...
- no brew pressure...water drips VERY slowly from the brew head and no pressure shows on the gauge - the brew pressure gauge was loose and crooked - the steam pressure gauge rests well below 1 bar and continually fluctuates every few seconds - the knobs for the steam and the water were unusually loose (which in my opinion feels poorly constructed)
So I find myself back at square 1. Given that I've already had this experience with the R58, I'm inclined to stay away from a repeat and go for one of the other machines. I don't like that being the case but I guess I'm now considering the Duetto pretty seriously.
Wow what is going on with this machine? So many people are having issues even across other forums. That's a lot of money for a machine to be plagued with problems like this one, odd considering their other models are solid.
Bgosselin Senior Member Joined: 26 Jul 2012 Posts: 51 Location: Canada,quebec Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sat Aug 25, 2012, 6:17am Subject: Re: Rocket R58 vs. Cellini Evoluzione...?
djackcity Said:
WELL...I just got my Rocket R58 and turns out much of what I read on line was true! It showed up DOA. Specifically...
- no brew pressure...water drips VERY slowly from the brew head and no pressure shows on the gauge - the brew pressure gauge was loose and crooked - the steam pressure gauge rests well below 1 bar and continually fluctuates every few seconds - the knobs for the steam and the water were unusually loose (which in my opinion feels poorly constructed)
So I find myself back at square 1. Given that I've already had this experience with the R58, I'm inclined to stay away from a repeat and go for one of the other machines. I don't like that being the case but I guess I'm now considering the Duetto pretty seriously.
With an experience like yours i would stay away from the rocket line for sure.
On one of the seatlle coffee gear video they do a short comparaison of the mini Vivaldi, the Duetto, the Breville and the R58. Very in the light side but she mention that the Duetto is not that well made. Not sure why she would make a comment like that.
The Vivaldi has been around for a long time and must be purge of defect by now. Mine have been performing very well with little maintenance for 4 years.
I will cross my finger with my R58. Hope problemS won't show up in the next few months.
Bgosselin Senior Member Joined: 26 Jul 2012 Posts: 51 Location: Canada,quebec Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sat Aug 25, 2012, 7:48am Subject: Re: Rocket R58 vs. Cellini Evoluzione...?
Forget that statement about the duetto not being well made. I watch the video again and she is talking about the finish. Note sure why. I never saw one up close but from video it seem to be a beautiful machine.
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