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E61 brew group on commercial machines
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > E61 brew group...  
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qualin
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qualin
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Posted Fri Aug 24, 2012, 12:20am
Subject: E61 brew group on commercial machines
 

I don't want to start a flamewar, but this has been bothering me for a little while.

Why is it one rarely ever sees an E61 Brew Group on a commercial machine today?

Every single cafe I've ever been to either has a hidden brew group or in some of the more upscale cafes, they'll use a spring-loaded lever machine.

I know that The Faema E61 Legend is one of the few commercial machines still selling with the E61 group, but I've never been to a cafe which had one.

It makes me wonder why they're so much more prolific in prosumer machines.

Heck, when I think about it, even the highest end Speedster, Slayer, etc machines don't even use an E61 brew group. Do
they use any principles from the E61 brew group though? (ie. Thermosyphon)

Maybe it's just a stupid question, but is there a cafe around where you live or know about which still uses an E61 based commercial machine?

 
Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.
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NobbyR
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Posted Fri Aug 24, 2012, 1:21am
Subject: Re: E61 brew group on commercial machines
 

Well, besides the Faema E61 Legend, Rocket Espresso's Linea Professionale or the Elektra Sixties and Elektra Classic also have E61 brew groups, for example, to name but a few.

A lot of other commercial espresso machines have the brew group connected directly to the boiler. Some people claim that this leads to a clearer separation of aromas, but also to less body.

 
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alanfrew
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Posted Fri Aug 24, 2012, 1:31am
Subject: Re: E61 brew group on commercial machines
 

You need to know where to look. Machines from laScala, Vibiemme, Cimbali, Wega, VFA, Expobar and many others may have E-61's under the hood, but all that's visible on the barista side is the bottom of the group and the electronic touchpads. Their mechanical complexity can mean that they're a b**** to maintain if they are surrounded by a shroud stuffed full of electronics, so they've tended to fall out of favour.

Alan
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sn_85
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Posted Fri Aug 24, 2012, 5:57am
Subject: Re: E61 brew group on commercial machines
 

If you're in Phoenix, AZ I'd check this place out.  Been there a handful of times and it's a great place for food and coffee.

Click Here (libertymarket.com)
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NobbyR
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Posted Tue Aug 28, 2012, 6:05am
Subject: Re: E61 brew group on commercial machines
 

qualin Said:

... Heck, when I think about it, even the highest end Speedster, Slayer, etc machines don't even use an E61 brew group. Do
they use any principles from the E61 brew group though? (ie. Thermosyphon) ...

Posted August 24, 2012 link

By the way, at least Kees van der Westen's machines (Speedster and Mirage) may not have an E61 brew group, but do use a thermosyphon system.

 
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JasonBrandtLewis
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Posted Tue Aug 28, 2012, 7:35am
Subject: Re: E61 brew group on commercial machines
 

There are dozens of machines still employing the classic E61, and hundreds more which use (for lack of a better term) a "modified" or "proprietary" version of the  E61, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.  

But at the same time, you have to keep in mind that Faema developed the E61 in . . . 1961!  It's a design that is over 50 years old, and we still talk about it, praise it, and use it every day!  So while it's a tried-and-true design, still in widespread use today, there has also been half a century's worth of tinkering, re-designing, improving upon the original.

E61 machines still in use today?  At least three restaurants and one café/roaster nearby still use Faema E61 machines, and there are a number of sources to still buy new ones.  Vibiemme HX machines have "true" E61 group heads.  So do Ala di Vittoria "la Valentina" machines, and similar models sold under different names.

I could go on, but I need to leave for work . . .

 
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dennisthemenace
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Posted Tue Aug 28, 2012, 1:32pm
Subject: Re: E61 brew group on commercial machines
 

Jason.
Can you explain (to an idiot like myself) the difference between a Vibiemme "true" E61 group and the Faema one please? Cheers. dennis
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Joel_B
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Joel_B
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Posted Tue Aug 28, 2012, 2:31pm
Subject: Re: E61 brew group on commercial machines
 

dennisthemenace Said:

Jason.
Can you explain (to an idiot like myself) the difference between a Vibiemme "true" E61 group and the Faema one please? Cheers. dennis

Posted August 28, 2012 link

Well, I'm not Jason but I too am an idiot if that helps lol.  At any rate, he was referring to a "true" e61 as one designed as the original design.  There are some that have a basic similarity but aren't in fact the same faema e61 design.  

For instance, my Astra has an e61 group, but is different in that it is switch activated versus lever actuated and it also doesn't have a spring loaded chamber used as a mechanical preinfusion.
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stefano65
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stefano65
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Posted Tue Aug 28, 2012, 2:31pm
Subject: Re: E61 brew group on commercial machines
 

In the 70's or early 80's when faema was going belly up,
Vibiemme bought the right to use the original grouphead patent (Faema has as well)
Vibiemme modify it/ customized it
so that's the basic story
most of "other" e-61 groups are very similar but not the exact one
see pictures here bottom of the page
http://www.espressocare.com/VibiemmeDetails.html

 
Stefano Cremonesi
info@espressocare.com
www.espressocare.com
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Joel_B
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Joel_B
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Posted Tue Aug 28, 2012, 2:37pm
Subject: Re: E61 brew group on commercial machines
 

Um, yeah that's a better answer than mine; I'd go with that one if I were you Dennis :)
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