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Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Would a Rocket...

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coffee_lui
Senior Member

Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Posts: 34
Location: Harwood Heights, Illinois
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto 3
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-e type B
Vac Pot: Cona D
Roaster: Behmor 1600

Posted Sat Sep 22, 2012, 11:56am Subject: Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

First of all I'll say, I love my Brewtus IV. Now, with that said, is there something that might make me want the R58 and get rid of my Brewtus. I know the R58 is rather new in the market but I'm sure there's someone out there that has had a cup on either of this machines that can chime in. Thanks

dsblv
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Dec 2006
Posts: 159
Location: Bellevue, WA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto Evoluzione
Grinder: MACAP MC4

Posted Sat Sep 22, 2012, 1:30pm Subject: Re: Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

The specs for the Rocket R58 are online. Is there are feature in the R58 that you feel is a "must have" over your Brewtus?

Bgosselin
Senior Member

Joined: 26 Jul 2012
Posts: 51
Location: Canada,quebec
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Sep 22, 2012, 4:31pm Subject: Re: Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

I think both machine are in the same categorie. Having one or the other would be a question of look, price, service. I have a R58 and love it. I have a Rocket distributor a few mile away. That help in my decision.

Posted Sat Sep 22, 2012, 10:00pm Subject: Re: Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

I don't have a particular spec in mind although some times I question my temp stability on my Brewtus. I really don't have a way to measure it so it's just speculation in my part as it relates to some pulls being out of a 'known' profile. When I saw the specs on the R58 it seem that it's temperature stability is one of it's main fortes, so maybe that would be a reason for me to possibly upgrade.... Yes/No??

qualin
Senior Member

Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 464
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3
Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A
Vac Pot: Looking to buy
Drip: Manual
Roaster: Considering?

Posted Sat Sep 22, 2012, 10:02pm Subject: Re: Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

I think the Rocket R58 is a direct competitor to the Brewtus on everything but price. The Brewtus IV-R sells for about $2400 here, while the Rocket is about $200 more. They both look very comparable in features, except that the R58 has that separate PID thingy. I personally like the looks of the R58 much better, but that's because it doesn't look as "Generic". On the other hand, I live about 20 minutes away from an Expobar dealer here, so there probably would be better service....

NobbyR
Senior Member

Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,611
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,...
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A

Posted Sat Sep 22, 2012, 11:22pm Subject: Re: Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

Being in the same price range and category, I'd say the differences between the Brewtus and the R58 are marginal. If you really want an upgrade that's noticeable, you'll have to dig deeper into your wallet and invest in a high class prosumer machine like the La Marzocco GS/3 or Kees van der Westen Speedster, or even go for a commercial machine.

*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)

qualin
Senior Member

Posted Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:28am
Subject: Re: Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

NobbyR Said:

If you really want an upgrade that's noticeable, you'll have to dig deeper into your wallet and invest in a high class prosumer machine like the La Marzocco GS/3 or Kees van der Westen Speedster, or even go for a commercial machine.

Posted September 22, 2012 link

Well, I think that the next step up from a prosumer machine would be a light commercial machine. There are a lot of light commercial machines on the market which are cheaper than the GS/3 or Speedster.
Take the La Cimbali Junior Casa DT1 or the Nuova Simonelli Appia for example. The former is about $3k and the latter is about $4k, both cheaper than the GS/3.

When looking at anything, one has to consider the price point. The Rocket R58 is at the high end of prosumer machine pricing before you get into light commercial territory, like the La Cimbali,
Elektra then eventually the La Marzocco machines. If you graph the pricing on these machines, it's considerably non-linear. I'd like to mention that the GS/3 is a light commercial machine rather than a prosumer machine.

If anything, from my point of view, I don't see how a Speedster would make better espresso than any of the machines I mentioned above. Sure, it's a beautiful machine, but they're a little north of $10k and other than the
aesthetic value, I don't see how one of those machines would deliver a drink any better than anything else that is on the market.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that one member of coffeegeek.com who actually owns a GS/3 mentioned that a Breville Dual Boiler machine makes espresso as good as his GS/3. Considering the price delta
between the two machines, (Nearly a $5500 difference) it was a really surprising thing to read. I won't say that the BDB is BETTER than the GS/3, but we can all certainly say that you do get what you pay for and
right now, the reliability and construction of the BDB would certainly be inferior to that of a GS/3. Is it inferior to a Brewtus or R58 in terms of quality and durability? Maybe. I can certainly say that it is a tiny machine
in comparison to other DB machines.

I believe that as soon as you go north of the $2.6k mark for a machine and enter into light commercial territory, all that you are really paying for is durablity, quality and capability. Not necessarily a machine which will
put a better drink in your cup. Remember the 4 M's, right? Light commercial machines don't necessary cater well to the consumer either.

The problem is that light commercial machines have some limitations which do not cater to the consumer.. Like counter space, height which isn't suitable for cupboards, the requirement for plumb-in since a lot of them
don't have reservoirs, pricing, issues with long warm up times and energy consumption. One could even argue that a good majority of light commercial machines are overkill for the home.

One thing we have to be careful about is always comparing everything to the GS/3. I don't agree that the most expensive machine on the market is the best. I personally wonder what is in a La Marzocco machine
which makes it so expensive. Maybe it is economics, supply and demand.. perhaps it is the unique brew group? Now I'm a bit off topic.

I can certainly say that when a machine is designed to last you a lifetime, spending $3-$7k on a machine seems like a bargain. We just need to get out of the throw away consumer mentality before we even
remotely consider dropping that much cash on a machine. It is funny to see La Marzocco GS/3 machines with a Rancilio Rocky next to them though. (Not poking fun at anyone here on the forums)

The funny thing is, grinders don't have the flashiness or the flare that espresso machines have. Anything over the $2.3k mark is in heavy duty shop grinder territory.

Strangely enough, my "Dream" machine and grinder set really isn't as high end as you think it might be. As nice as it would be to have a Mazzer Robur, it is overkill. I would consider a Compak K8 Fresh
combined with a La Cimbali Junior Casa DT1... I think that's something I'll have to spend a long time saving my pennies for I think. :)

Posted Sun Sep 23, 2012, 9:32pm Subject: Re: Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

Thanks for the well though out responses guys. I have never considered the La Marzocco for the reasons qualin mentions " more expensive is not nescesarly better". I'm sure it's nice but I think a good 'setup'(roaster, grinder, machine) is a balance to strike for. I'm sure we can throw all the money in the world at this and still not get that 'godshot' every one's after. Anyway I digress. To the original question. I enjoy the brewtus but the R58 seems to have tighter 'specs'. Do these show up in the cup or am I just caugh up in the numbers?

qualin
Senior Member

Posted Mon Sep 24, 2012, 12:08am
Subject: Re: Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

coffee_lui Said:

I'm sure it's nice but I think a good 'setup'(roaster, grinder, machine) is a balance to strike for.

Posted September 23, 2012 link

Well, I get the impression that roasting isn't for everyone. I don't think that roasting is a necessity unless you want to save money on your coffee. Right now, most roasters around here
sell their espresso blend for roughly around $16/lb or about $36/kg. I know that roasting the beans will bring that cost down. In all honesty, 1 kilogram of beans lasts me about a month
so I suspect I probably wouldn't save much money. Where I can see it being beneficial is if one went through a lot more beans than that every month.

I should apologize for being off-topic. Anything involving roasting is for another forum.

coffee_lui Said:

I'm sure we can throw all the money in the world at this and still not get that 'godshot' every one's after.

Posted September 23, 2012 link

If money wasn't a factor, in theory one could go to a major engineering firm and have them design and engineer the perfect Super Automatic espresso machine. It could use the
latest in Hydraulic, Mechanical and Computer engineering to eliminate as much error as possible out of the 4 M's. You put beans in, push a button and espresso comes out. The problem is,
even the most technologically advanced piece of technology in the world doesn't know or can't figure out what a "God" shot is.

An extremely skilled and knowledgeable Barista is priceless and is better than anything modern science and engineering can produce. That Barista can see the "Errors" in things and
compensate for them. Kind of like how a race car driver knows how to "read" their vehicle so that they don't crash in the turns. I once saw a video of a man deliberately extracting an
espresso using a Bezzera Strega by holding back the lever on the machine. I'm pretty sure the pros don't do this. :-) I get the feeling that it wasn't extracting the coffee at a full 9 bars,
like we're all taught it should be. His claim was that by holding back the lever and deliberately drawing out the time on the shot, it added more flavor to the drink.

Unfortunately, you can't "Program" taste into the machine. I once pulled a shot with my Silvia that I thought would taste like crap.. 18 second extraction, too hot a temperature (Didn't
temperature surf) and had stale beans... and it was one of the most incredible shots I ever had. Can I reproduce it? Heck no! That's the nature of the beast... and that's what makes
coffee so exciting and interesting in my eyes. If anything, money buys that repeatability and consistency. That's what I eventually want to aim for.

coffee_lui Said:

I enjoy the brewtus but the R58 seems to have tighter 'specs'. Do these show up in the cup or am I just caught up in the numbers?

Posted September 23, 2012 link

I don't think that I'm qualified to answer that, since I don't have either machine. If the PID keeps the temperature tighter within 0.1 degrees as opposed to 0.5 degrees, will it matter?
(Those numbers are theoretical, not actual BTW.) Hard to say. I think some people get so focused on what the PID reads that they fail to pay attention to what is in the cup. I think every
machine probably has its own quirks and qualities that make it unique and make the cup slightly differently...

From my perspective, the only thing that the R58 offers over the Brewtus are looks, bigger gauges and a different operating procedure. (ie. External PID) Maybe that sounds a bit
ignorant on my part and for that I apologize, but until I've had a chance to use these two machines side by side with the same beans and the same grinder, I am absolutely not
qualified to make any other opinion otherwise.

NobbyR
Senior Member

Posted Mon Sep 24, 2012, 12:18am Subject: Re: Would a Rocket R58 be better than say... My Brewtus!!

coffee_lui Said: ... I enjoy the brewtus but the R58 seems to have tighter 'specs'. Do these show up in the cup or am I just caught up in the numbers? Posted September 23, 2012 link Without being able to prove it, I don't think the slight differences will show up in the cup. If you're really keen on upgrating (a severe case of upgraditis so to speak), get yourself a commercial grinder. That will make a difference in the cup!

*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)

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