kray Senior Member Joined: 26 Sep 2012 Posts: 6 Location: Twin Cities Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Wed Sep 26, 2012, 2:49pm Subject: need advice on a new machine
After 20 bazillion shots of espresso, my nearly 20 year old Rancilio Silvia has died. While are many new machines on the market, due to the incredible longevity of old my Silvia, it is hard to not simply buy another Silvia. However I am also looking at a Pasquini Livietta T2. Please share your opinions. All advice is welcome.
kray Senior Member Joined: 26 Sep 2012 Posts: 6 Location: Twin Cities Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Wed Sep 26, 2012, 4:11pm Subject: Re: need advice on a new machine
Sure... the upgrade is in question. While i have thought (when entertaining) that it would be nice to be able to crank out multiple shots and steam milk with a double boiler machine. The reality is that over 95% of the time, I am making one latte (for my self) at a time (4 or 5 a day).
My grinder is a Gaggia MDF (burr grinder), and I am very comfortable adjusting grind to pull a good shot with a Silvia.
The attraction of another Silvia is I know how to use it, and my first lasted a long long time. The attraction of a double boiler machine is to froth and brew simultaneously.
I guess the question is...how much more do have to spend to get a double boiler machine with the build quality of a Silvia?
qualin Senior Member Joined: 30 Jun 2012 Posts: 459 Location: Calgary, AB Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3 Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A Vac Pot: Looking to buy Drip: Manual Roaster: Considering?
Posted Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:39am Subject: Re: need advice on a new machine
I think it's fantastic that your machine lasted you as long as it has. Or that you've stuck with it that long. A lot of the members on the list upgrade from it due to the wide temperature band and the hurry-up-and-wait to steam. Some stick with it and PID them, but for the extra expense, it's better just to go to a heat exchanging machine anyway.
You do more volume than I do. I maybe make two drinks a day for myself and four or five if I have company over.
What is your budget for a replacement machine? Do you have space constraints? Can you plumb-in or do you need a reservoir? Do you have a 20 amp capable 120 volt circuit?
A brand new Silvia is roughly around the $700 mark now. A lot of the members on the group mention that the Silvia isn't all that great value for the money these days with other machines on the market competing directly against it. Rancilio really needs to get off their butt and come out with a Breville Dual Boiler killer. I'd buy it in a second.
I will admit that the one thing I really liked about the Silvia was how much in the way of commercial grade parts it has for the price they're asking for it. It's almost an anomaly in the consumer grade market for that price point, IMHO.
There's basically three classes of espresso machine.. Consumer, Prosumer and Commercial Grade. Unfortunately, it seems to me that Rancilio kind of skipped the Prosumer class and went straight to commercial grade from their consumer class. So, you go from a $700 Silvia to a $2100 Epoca. I wish Rancilio sold a prosumer machine which closed that gap a bit. Rancilio's Epoca is 15" Wide, 22" Deep... that's too deep for my counters!
The biggest thing I've noticed between a commercial class machine and a prosumer machine is that a prosumer machine will have a reservoir, but a commercial machine usually doesn't, they're plumb in only. Another thing is that there are a few prosumer machines which can also do light commercial duty. Those you can usually tell by the fact they are switchable between 15 amp and 20 amp operation.
For the amount of drinks you are making, a prosumer machine will be perfect for your needs and you'd probably last a week before needing to fill up the reservoir on one of them. (Unless you really do want to go plumb-in!)
I think you should be looking at anywhere between the $2000 mark right up to the $2700 mark. There are a lot of prosumer grade double boiler machines on the market in that price range. When you go past that, you're in commercial territory.
If you want a machine which is well built and you have room on the counter for it, I'd probably recommend something like a La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II. I was looking at buying one of these machines myself. They're great value for the money. Unfortunately, I have 15" of width to work with and the machine is 16.5" wide, so it's off the table for me. (Literally)
If your budget permits for it, You could consider the Rocket R58, the Izzo Alex Duetto II, the Vibiemme Double Domobar, The Expobar Brewtus IV or even the QuickMill QM67 as direct competitors to the La Spaziale.
If you want to consider a Heat Exchanging machine instead, there are a massive amount of different heat exchanging machines on the market which are aimed at the Prosumer market. They start anywhere between the $1000 mark and go up to the $2600 mark, depending on what you're looking for.
If you are making primarily milk drinks, you don't necessarily need the temperature stability of a dual boiler. If budget isn't a concern, then yeah.. go Double Boiler. :-)
qualin Senior Member Joined: 30 Jun 2012 Posts: 459 Location: Calgary, AB Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3 Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A Vac Pot: Looking to buy Drip: Manual Roaster: Considering?
Posted Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:57am Subject: Re: need advice on a new machine
As an afterthought...
Nuova Simonelli's "Home" machine is the Nuova Simonelli Oscar. They typically sell for about $1400.
That was Nuova Simonelli's idea of what a home machine should be, in stark contrast with the Rancilio Silvia.
It is a small heat exchanging machine which would be perfect for the volume of drinks you are doing. The only thing I don't like about it is the all plastic case which it has, but that's more of a cosmetic thing.
If you want something with a gauge(s) and stainless steel, Bezzera has a huge wide line of prosumer machines, ranging from the $900 mark all the way up to the $1600 mark. They're unique in this way. They have a unique brew group on their lower end machines which electrically heats the brew group instead of using a Thermosiphoning E61.
kray Senior Member Joined: 26 Sep 2012 Posts: 6 Location: Twin Cities Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Sep 27, 2012, 5:13am Subject: Re: need advice on a new machine
Thanks for all the thoughts qualin. I appreciate it. Your questions are good ones. Here is some additional information. Size is a concern (I had not thought of that!). I have a small kitchen with limited counter space, and to be honest, I struggle to find counter space for the Silvia and grinder. I would not want to go much larger. I also have to admit, that I like the pro class components that go into the Silvia. Also, budget... there's always that. I cant justify a $2000 machine. That being said... is there something out there of smaller size, Silvia style build quality, that has the capacity to pull shots and steam simultaneously, that I should be looking at?
Is there such a thing as a $1000 - $1500 prosumer machine? (HX?)
Posted Thu Sep 27, 2012, 5:38am Subject: Re: need advice on a new machine
If you look at my "upgraditis strikes - narrow machine for ~$1500" thread, you'll see people suggesting the Nuova Simonelli Oscar ($1050 HX machine), the Vibiemme Junior HX ($1369) or the Expobar Lever Plus ($1127). You're firmly in small prosumer HX territory in that price range. A search of a certain well known auction site will find you a refurb or s/h Oscar for a bit less than $1000.
I believe a Silvano or CC1 would also fit at the cheaper, slightly less capable end of things (single boiler, with separate thermo-block), and would leave you some over out of $1000 to try a new or secondhand more adjustable grinder ;)
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,652 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Thu Sep 27, 2012, 7:11am Subject: Re: need advice on a new machine
hi I am dictating from my car so please forgive any punctuation errors. a double boiler machine is not superior to a heat exchanger machine whole Foods can produce outstanding qualities espresso and easier than your Sylvia. I really think you are firmly in the heat exchanger category. the difference between heat exchanger and double boiler is in method of operation not quality of drinks. yes sylvia is built solid but I think you will find that all semi commercial machines are built at least as solidly if not strong. I know it has been said before in this thread but the Oscar is a great heat exchanger machine that I think will fit your budget and space. without slight modifications it can not be set on a timer but that is an easy mod to do all you need to do is to add a vacuum breaker to the main line and you are good to go. once you get out of the single boiler tool use machines you have a much higher capacity to entertain with and the shops are easier to be more consistent. eventually you will want to upgrade your Grindr as it is good enough for the Sylvia it will be holding you back with the Oscar.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
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