Oberon Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2009 Posts: 7 Location: Idaho Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sat Oct 27, 2012, 7:41am Subject: Recommendations for setup under 2,500
After reading through tglodjo's recent thread on the best prosumer machine, I'd like to some similarly tailored recommendations.
Following some of Jason's fine prompts (and others), here is the context: - budget $2,500 for grinder and espresso machine - typical day of use would entail 2 drinks, mostly americano's, but some straight, some milk (but likely not very often on the latter); likely never going over 4 drinks in one sitting - little need for entertaining with drinks - counter space is limited (and clearance above machine - so easy fill is important) - (going into a new house) likely just 15v - plumbing possible, but not a must - my 'style'? I'm fine with experimenting, but I do so to get something down the way I like it and then stick with the routine
Thanks in advance for the kind, and insightful input...
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat Oct 27, 2012, 9:55am Subject: Re: Recommendations for setup under 2,500
Random thoughts . . .
-- Making Americanos requires a hot water tap in addition to the steam wand for milk drinks, so an entry-level machine like the Nuova Simonelli Oscar is OUT.
-- If you are truly making milk drinks rarely (say once of twice a week max), you may want to consider a high(er)-end SBDU such as the Quick Mill Alexia ($1,195). But, in all honesty, switching back-and-forth from "brew temp" to "steam temp" is a Royal PITA is you have to do it more often than that -- especially if you have to make milk drinks back-to-back-to-back. In that case, you're much better off with an HX, where you don't need to worry about that.
-- Don't scrimp on the grinder. I'm sure you've already read/heard that, but it's worth repeating . . . again and again! Buy a "better-than-you-need" grinder, one that will last through at least one, if not two upgrades. If you never upgrade, you'll have a great grinder. If you do upgrade, you won't have to get a new grinder, too. And, as I'm sure you know, it's the grinder that makes espresso; the machine is just a hot water delivery device. So, bottom line: spend more on the grinder than you think you need to, and less (relatively speaking) on the machine itself.
-- At an absolute minimum, look at the Baratza Vario. You can also look for a usedMazzer Super Jolly, and buy a new set of burrs. But with your budget, and depending upon your usage, you may want to go "higher" . . .
RichardCoffee Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2010 Posts: 97 Location: Long Beach Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: gaggia baby twin, mini... Grinder: fiorenzato pietro 63mm,... Roaster: weber grill with rk drum
Posted Sat Oct 27, 2012, 10:03am Subject: Re: Recommendations for setup under 2,500
I make Americanos without using the hot water from my machine. Normally, I just pop a mug with the desired amount of water into the microwave and zap it for 30 or 40 seconds while I'm brewing the shot. Another way I use occasionally is to steam the water in the cup using the machine's steam wand.
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat Oct 27, 2012, 10:12am Subject: Re: Recommendations for setup under 2,500
It sounds like, in the case of the microwave, you are making a Long Black -- pulling a shot into hot water.
An Americano is adding hot water to the espresso.
I have no idea what adding steam to the shot would do (aside from spraying coffee everywhere), but I would think the temperature of the steam wouldn't be the best idea . . .
Posted Sat Oct 27, 2012, 11:13am Subject: Re: Recommendations for setup under 2,500
I make Americanos for my wife with the Ellimatic (pre-Oscar,but also no hot water tap) by pulling water through the portafilter. Works just fine, so I wouldn't necessarily write off an Oscar, as otherwise it fits your requirements and would enable you to get the grinder that will last the rest of your life.
Personally since i prefer flat burr ugly does not offend me I would go with a used Major and the Rocket.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,613 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Sat Oct 27, 2012, 11:24pm Subject: Re: Recommendations for setup under 2,500
Most prosumer HX machines (no matter if it's a Rocket Espresso, Bezzera, Isomac, EMC, Elektra or other brand) will probably leave you enough money for a decent grinder. However, like Jason emphasized it's wise to invest into a really good grinder that'll last. So you might choose your grinder first and see how much money that leaves you for the machine.
I suggest you take a look at consumer reviews on CoffeeGeek, browse online shops, and the websites of different manufacturers in order to compile a shortlist. Then you take that list to local retailers and take a live hands-on look at all of those machines in consideration. You can't really go wrong with any espresso machine in the prosumer price range. So in the end you can buy the machine whose design and feel you like best.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
Oberon Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2009 Posts: 7 Location: Idaho Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Oct 28, 2012, 11:51am Subject: Re: Recommendations for setup under 2,500
A great start...this gives my research some needed direction
One note (on both grinders and espresso machines), is that I strongly prefer direct mechanical controls, so the Oscar is not-so-appealing.
This also makes me wonder a bit about the Vario grinder, although in all other respects, it would rank quite high. I can't do something as big as the Jolly. I'm looking toward, these (altough the mini e is a bit $$$):
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,684 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Mon Oct 29, 2012, 6:37am Subject: Re: Recommendations for setup under 2,500
Just as an aside, when making several Americanos back to back (I did 4 last night for guests) I find I work faster by pulling shots and steaming water to temp rather than dumping a lot of cold water into the steam boiler to make up for pulling hot water for the drinks from the steam boiler and my steam boiler is 2.5 l.
I can heat 8 to 10 oz of water while pulling a shot and have the whole drink finished in about 1.5 minutes vs a lot longer if I pulled that same 10 oz of water from the steam boiler then wait for it to recover so for me, the hot water tap is not as important as the steam wand even for making drinks in which I add hot water to them.
Hey, YMMV!!!!!
EDIT, then there is the fact that I can steam the water to my desired serving temp VS the temp of the water in the steam boiler, flashing on exit of the boiler or about 212 into the drink.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
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