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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Need assistance...  
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khiyasu
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 25
Location: Squamish, BC
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 10:07pm
Subject: Need assistance with semi-automatics
 

Hi, I am starting to get into coffee and did a lot of research. I was actually looking into semi automatics because of convenience and the typical (they cost more so they must be better) reasoning. However after reading reviews and forums, I'm come to the conclusion that getting a good semi automatic and a really good grinder will be wayyy better. Right?

Super Automatics:
Saeco Vienna Plus
Saeco Odea Go
Saeco Incanto Easy

Semi Automatics:
Saeco Aroma with a modified portafilter so that it is non-pressurized
Breville BES820XL die-cast
Espressione Cafe Retro Espresso Machine

These are the ones that I'm thinking of. Anyone have any experience with the ones I'm looking at or have any other recommendations to which to get? I'm pretty much looking for something that will make me a good cup of espresso, americano or latte (milk frother hopefully would be good too).

Thanks so much.
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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,278
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 11:08pm
Subject: Re: Need assistance with semi-automatics
 

First of all, welcome to CG . . .

khiyasu Said:

Hi, I am starting to get into coffee and did a lot of research.

Posted October 30, 2012 link

Um, perhaps not enough, however.  (See below.)

khiyasu Said:

I was actually looking into semi automatics because of convenience and the typical (they cost more so they must be better) reasoning. However after reading reviews and forums, I'm come to the conclusion that getting a good semi automatic and a really good grinder will be wayyy better. Right?

Posted October 30, 2012 link

I'm presuming that what you meant to write was "super" first and "semi" second, is that correct?  (Again, see more below.)

khiyasu Said:

These are the ones that I'm thinking of.
Super Automatics:
Saeco Vienna Plus
Saeco Odea Go
Saeco Incanto Easy

Semi Automatics:
Saeco Aroma with a modified portafilter so that it is non-pressurized
Breville BES820XL die-cast
Espressione Cafe Retro Espresso Machine

Posted October 30, 2012 link

OK, before we start looking at specific machines, you need to FIRST answer what are known as

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

THE Standard Questions:
1)  What kind of drinks do you like/want to make?  (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.)
2)  How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at ay one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.)
3)  How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week?  (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.)
4)  Can you plumb a machine directly into the water supply, or do you want/need a pourover machine with its own reservoir?
5)  Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit?
6)  What is your budget for a new machine?  Does that also include a grinder?  If not, what is your budget for a grinder?

Posted December 12, 2011 link

Now, just in case you think you can wait on the grinder, there are two more things you NEED to know . . .

First:

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

The Four M's of Espresso:
1) the Macinazione is the grinder, and with it, the correct grinding of the coffee beans;
2) the Miscela is the coffee beans/blend itself;
3) the Macchina is the espresso machine; and
4) the Mano is the skilled hand of the barista.  

All four are important.  Nothing is more important than the grinder.

Posted February 27, 2011 link

Second:

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

Babbie's Rule of Fifteens:
-- Green (unroasted) coffee beans should be roasted within 15 months, or they go stale.
-- Roasted coffee beans should be ground within 15 days, or they go stale.
-- Ground coffee should be used within 15 minutes, or it goes stale.

Posted February 27, 2011 link

In other words, 1) the grinder makes the espresso, the machine simply delivers hot water; 2) if you think you can wait on the grinder, the simple matter is, you can't.  

That's what I meant by maybe you did a lot of research, but perhaps not enough.

khiyasu Said:

Anyone have any experience with the ones I'm looking at or have any other recommendations to which to get? I'm pretty much looking for something that will make me a good cup of espresso, americano or latte (milk frother hopefully would be good too).

Posted October 30, 2012 link

OK, so . . . NOW:  why those specific machines?  In other words, what was it specifically about those six machines you mentioned by name that attracted you to them and made you think they were potential purchases?

As far as semi-automatics and super-automatics are concerned . . . perhaps a little more research is in order.  Or, at the very least, some more reading:

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

So, let's start at the beginning, OK?

ONE way to classify espresso machines is by their method/mechanism/capabilities for producing the shot.  

-- Manual machines do not have a pump.  They rely on the operator to force the water through the puck by use of a lever.  With some machines, the lever is controlled manually by the operator -- like with the La Pavoni Europicola, or the Olympia Cremina.  The operator lifts the lever up and pulls it down, pushing the water through the puck.  With other machines, the lever may be spring-operated, like with the Elektra Micro Casa a Leva, the Bezzera B2006AL, or the Rancilio Class 6 LE models, in which the lever is controlled by a spring -- the operator pulls the lever down, and then a spring draws the lever back to the "up" position, moving the piston and forcing the water through the puck.

-- Semi-automatic machines have a pump to force the water through the puck, but the operator turns the pump on-and-off.  Examples would include the machines like Gaggia Classic, the Faema Legend (the original E61 machine), or the Izzo Alex Duetto II -- which are, respectively, an SDBU, an HX, and a DB machine -- all in semi-automatic formats.

-- Full-automatic machines, also known as volumetric dosing machines, have a pump to force the water through the puck, like a semi-auto, but after a certain volume of water is dispensed (programed by the operator), the pump will shut itself off automatically.  HOWEVER, the pump can also be shut off manually, just as with a semi-automatic.  Examples would include the Bezzera BZ07sde, the Elektra Sixties T1, and the La Marzocco Linea AV models.  Each of these , by the way, is also produced as a semi-automatic -- the Bezzera BZ07spm, the Elektra Sixties A3 (now discontinued, although plenty of other semi-autos are still made by Elektra), and the La Marzocco Linea EE models.

-- Super-automatic machines do everything for the user, who merely has to push a button, wait, and drink.  These machines will grind the beans, tamp the puck, push the water through the grounds, froth the milk . . . everything.  Examples include everything from a Gaggia Titanium, the Jura-Capresso Impressa S9, and the Faema X3 Prestige.

THEN you can classify machines by their boiler type (and please note, I am ignoring thermoblock units):

-- Open boiler machines are relatively rare, and date back many decades.  These can heat the water for espresso, but cannot build up any pressure to steam milk.  To the best of my knowledge, this are all manual lever machines, and include machines like the Arrarex Caravel and the FE-AR La Peppina.

-- Single Boiler Dual Use (SBDU) machines are the most popular machines for home use.  These have one boiler and two thermostats; the boiler will either heat the water within to brewing temperature or to steaming temperature.  The operator must wait for the boiler to move up/move down before continuing, i.e.: the machine can only brew or it can steam milk -- one or the other -- at a time.  The best known example, at least here in the States, would be the Rancilio Silvia

-- Heat Exchanger (HX) machines also have one boiler, but it is permanently set to steaming temperature.  Cool water, either from a built-in reservoir ("tank") or from a water line ("plumbed-in" or "direct connect"), is then flash heated to brew temp via the use of a heat exchanger.  Examples would include machines like the Izzo Alex II, Quick Mill Anita, or the Vibiemme Domobar Super.

-- Double Boiler (DB) machines have two boilers, one for heating the brewing water, the other for making steam.  Examples would include the Izzo Alex Duetto II, the La Spaziale Vivaldi II, or the Vibiemme Double Domobar v.3.

ALSO, machines can be classified by their components, if you will, and their target market.

-- Consumer machines are just that, designed for home use by the consumer.

-- Professional (or commercial) machines are designed for high-volume use in busy cafés, restaurants, etc.  They use more robust parts than consumer models, able to withstand their heavy, constant usage.

-- "Prosumer" machines fill in the gap; they are actually low-volume commercial machines that can also by used in a home environment.

So you can have a commercial lever machine, or a consumer lever machine; a full-automatic HX prosumer model, as well as a full-auto HX commercial model, and so on and so on and so on . . . .

Posted January 4, 2012 link

Picture a see-saw for a moment.  On one end is "ease-of-use/convenience."  On the other end, "quality-in-the-cup."  Both ends can't be "up" at the same time.

Remember to answer the "standard questions."  The more specific you are, the more specific we can be in our replies.  Oh, and one more question:  how much experience do you have in making espresso at home, if any?

Cheers,
Jason

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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khiyasu
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 25
Location: Squamish, BC
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 11:31pm
Subject: Re: Need assistance with semi-automatics
 

Hi Jason,

Thanks for that thorough reply. That was awesome!

I actually have ZERO experience making expresso shots. I'm just getting started. I don't drink coffee too often, maybe just once a day, twice if I really need it and I'm mainly interested in making espresso, cappuccino, americano, and lattes. Well, it would be neat to be able to learn to make more that that too but I'm thinking that would be a good starting point. I probably would like to drink lattes more so it would be nice to have a good steamer. Other than that, I am mainly interested in making good coffee for my friends who visit as I love hosting people at my house. I was thinking the semi-automatic should be good enough because I don't drink too often and I feel that by going with the semi-auto I would learn more about coffee and hopefully through experience, make really really good espresso.

I am quite intrigued by the superauto only because if I have a bunch of friends over it would be easier and quicker to make coffee for them. However, then theres that quality vs speed issue. I am willing to spend more on the grinder as from what I've heard the grinder is very very very important. I guess all in all, the barista is willing to learn and is trying to find a good grinder/espresso maker combo that would be a good starter for making good quality coffee? Does this help? haha :)

The coffee machines that I have listed are mainly because I found them on craigslist that seem like decent machines at a good price. I'm not looking to break the bank right now as I am only starting so I guess I'm looking for recommendations for a "starter pack".

Thanks again.
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NobbyR
Senior Member
NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,991
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 11:58pm
Subject: Re: Need assistance with semi-automatics
 

Have you read these CoffeeGeek articles: How to Buy an Espresso Machine and The Newbie Guide to Espresso? They are very informative and helpful.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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khiyasu
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 25
Location: Squamish, BC
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Wed Oct 31, 2012, 12:10am
Subject: Re: Need assistance with semi-automatics
 

I have read the how to buy an espresso machine but not the other one. I will get on it. Thanks! :)
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qualin
Senior Member
qualin
Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 646
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3
Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A
Vac Pot: Looking to buy
Drip: Manual
Roaster: Considering?
Posted Wed Oct 31, 2012, 12:45am
Subject: Re: Need assistance with semi-automatics
 

Hi Khiyasu.

Jason's reply is really straight forward and is an excellent aggregation of information which pretty much gives you an overview of the market.

First of all, what is your budget? You mentioned you don't want to "Break the bank". Unfortunately, purchasing an espresso machine is not like buying a toaster oven or a blender, it
is a major appliance purchase, like buying a stove or a refrigerator and should be planned for as such. There are ways to compromise and buy something cheaper, but I'm assuming that
you most likely want a machine which is durable, of high quality and isn't mostly made out of cheap plastic. :-)

khiyasu Said:

I don't drink coffee too often, maybe just once a day, twice if I really need it and I'm mainly interested in making espresso, americano, and lattes.

Posted October 30, 2012 link

If you are just starting out and budget is an issue, then a Single Boiler / Dual Use machine would be adequate for your needs provided that you understand the limitations of one. Since they do not have the capability
of steaming and brewing at the same time, it can slow you down a bit if you are making any drinks involving steaming milk. Since I have a SBDU machine myself, my routine takes me about roughly 10 minutes to make one drink,
from start to finish. That includes waiting on the machine. For a single person making drinks for themselves, this is adequate.

When preparing espresso, it is absolutely crucial that you are able to grind coffee consistently and fine enough for espresso. This is what makes the drink. The more you spend on a grinder, up to a point, the higher the quality
your espresso will be.  It is crucial to focus your money on a grinder first, machine second. Now, I'm going to suggest a few machines which I personally do not have experience with, but have read
favorable reviews upon. Your mileage may vary. I'm going to assume that your budget is fairly restricted so I'll start off with lower end models which are what I consider "Entry Level". Please note that I'm sticking with a
motorized grinder instead of a hand grinder for my suggestions below. The cost savings for a hand grinder are approximately $100 over a motorized grinder.

Now, I noticed you are in Squamish, BC, so you may want to deal with Espressotec in Richmond, BC.

- Grinder : La Pavoni, $250.
- Machine: Gaggia Baby, $450.
- Total: $700

If you don't mind buying online, idrinkcoffee offers a large selection of machines to choose from.  In which case your options would change slightly.

- Grinder : Lelit PL43 Conical Burr Grinder, $250.
- Machine: Lelit PL41EM V2, $500.
- Total: $750

If buying used is an option, consider looking at a used Rancilio Rocky / Rancilio Silvia combination. If you can find a pair for ~$750 or less, they present good value, have commercial-grade components in them,
are extremely durable and not too difficult to use. That's what I started out with (I'm still using the Silvia) and that's what I recommend. In saying that, be aware that the Rocky can be a little frustrating when
it comes to grinding for espresso due to it's stepped grind selection.

khiyasu Said:

would like to drink lattes more so it would be nice to have a good steamer.

Posted October 30, 2012 link

Most SBDU machines on the market, especially the Rancilio Silvia, have very good to excellent steaming capability, but as long as you are patient enough to let them warm up first.

khiyasu Said:

I am mainly interested in making good coffee for my friends who visit as I love hosting people at my house.

Posted October 30, 2012 link

OK, This will change your requirements a bit. You will find that if you are using an SBDU machine to prepare drinks for guests, you'll end up in a situation where they will finish their drinks before you can have yours. This
can be a frustrating experience because you will be waiting on the machine every time you want to make an espresso-based milk drink. In which case, you should consider stretching your budget a bit and consider something
like an entry level heat exchanging machine.

A Nuova Simonelli Oscar starts out at $1369.00 for either vendor, or you can choose a Bezzera BZ07P with idrinkcoffee for $1300. The largest difference between these two machines is the cabinet. The former has a plastic
cabinet, the other stainless steel. Both will make very good espresso and will keep up with your needs for friends and company.

If you are going this route, it would also be wise to consider upgrading the grinder as well to a heavier duty one, such as a Baratza Vario, Which is $469.

That brings your budget up to $1838 for both grinder and machine. What a difference, eh?

khiyasu Said:

I was thinking the semi-automatic should be good enough because I don't drink too often

Posted October 30, 2012 link

The problem with Super Automatics is that they tend to produce inferior quality coffee in comparison to what you can get out of a semi-automatic machine. As well, they are quite expensive, more than a SBDU machine,
but less than a Heat Exchanging machine and grinder, yet they have a fairly short longevity. On average, from what I've seen posted on this board, they typically have a lifespan of between 3-6 years before requiring repairs.

One of the other parts to Superautomatics which tends to be a soft point is the quality of the grinder. Any standalone consumer grade grinder at $250 or more will blow away whatever is in a super-automatic.
That in itself has a huge impact in the quality of the drinks you'll be making.

khiyasu Said:

The coffee machines that I have listed are mainly because I found them on craigslist that seem like decent machines at a good price.

Posted October 30, 2012 link

Buying a used super-automatic machine at this point in time is not something I would recommend. You want to purchase something that has a good warranty and comes from a vendor which can service it and stand behind it
as you are learning. Especially when you are spending as much as this. The old saying does go, "You get what you pay for."

 
Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.
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NobbyR
Senior Member
NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,991
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Wed Oct 31, 2012, 1:14am
Subject: Re: Need assistance with semi-automatics
 

khiyasu Said:

... I was thinking the semi-automatic should be good enough because I don't drink too often and I feel that by going with the semi-auto I would learn more about coffee and hopefully through experience, make really really good espresso.

I am quite intrigued by the superauto  ...

Posted October 30, 2012 link

To make one thing clear: a superautomatic coffee maker is by far no step-up from a semi-automatic portafilter espresso machine. It's a different machine that is mostly about convenience and less about espresso quality, as you've alrady heard. For various reasons, especially those widely-used and popular domestic superautomatics are not up to the task of brewing really good espresso, no matter what manufacturers advertise. The best possible espresso or latte can only be made with a traditional (semi-automatic or automatic) espresso machine.

However, it takes a capable grinder, fresh coffee beans and quite some practice to get a hang of brewing espresso. On the other hand, there's no magic to it. Anyone can learn how to handle the task.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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tglodjo
Senior Member
tglodjo
Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 208
Location: Jackson, TN
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Virtuoso
Drip: Wave, V60, Chemex, Clever
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Oct 31, 2012, 5:25am
Subject: Re: Need assistance with semi-automatics
 

khiyasu,

I'm not an expert in this by any means, but I started with a Saeco Aroma, so I thought I'd chime in. The Aroma was a great machine for me as a beginner. I did get the non-pressurized portafilter and the stainless steel steam wand (much better than the stock plastic one!) and I really began learning about espresso right there. With the Aroma, you won't need to get a very pricey grinder. I used a Bodum Bistro Burr grinder with it and it worked just find. It made an alright cup of espresso and the lattes were quite good.

HOWEVER, a grinder like the bistro only worked for a low-level entry machine like the Aroma. If ever you were to upgrade the machine, the grinder would then be useless to you. Follow the advice the others have given: step one is invest in a decent grinder! I didn't believe it at first, but it's true. I got a Baratza Vario new on eBay for $350. I would at least get the Baratza Preciso. That'll give you plenty of settings to work with as your enthusiasm for espresso and machines grow.

Regarding the Aroma, it did not last long for me. I'm not talking about it breaking down (it's a well built machine), but for a coffee enthusiast (I just started a few months ago!), it's basic and you'll get upgraditis pretty quickly. Yes, it makes a good cup of coffee and a good latte. It'll take you a while to make drinks if you're doing them for friends too. So if your budget allows, I'd follow Qualin's advice and at least start with a Gaggia Baby or Classic, or a Rancilio Silvia. They'll give you plenty of opportunity to learn the art of espresso.

Hope this helps.
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NobbyR
Senior Member
NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,991
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Wed Oct 31, 2012, 6:01am
Subject: Re: Need assistance with semi-automatics
 

tglodjo Said:

.... With the Aroma, you won't need to get a very pricey grinder ... a grinder like the bistro only worked for a low-level entry machine like the Aroma ...

Posted October 31, 2012 link

I guess most people on this forum will agree that you need a grinder that is capable of grinding fine enough for espresso with any kind of non-pressurized portafilter espresso machine. For the Bodum Bistro this is highly debatable.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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tglodjo
Senior Member
tglodjo
Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 208
Location: Jackson, TN
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Virtuoso
Drip: Wave, V60, Chemex, Clever
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Oct 31, 2012, 6:12am
Subject: Re: Need assistance with semi-automatics
 

NobbyR Said:

I guess most people on this forum will agree that you need a grinder that is capable of grinding fine enough for espresso with any kind of non-pressurized portafilter espresso machine. For the Bodum Bistro this is highly debatable.

Posted October 31, 2012 link

I realize it's debatable. But I'm just sharing from my own experience. I had to keep it on it's finest setting, but it was fine and consistent, and it gave me a decent (not great, but decent) shot of espresso. Good enough for milk-based drinks at least.

Don't get me wrong, I'd never go back to it now, but it worked with the setup and is doable if one is on an extremely tight budget with a very basic machine.
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