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Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Rocket R58 Dual...

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Bgosselin
Senior Member

Joined: 26 Jul 2012
Posts: 51
Location: Canada,quebec
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Oct 8, 2012, 8:27am Subject: Re: Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

You bought it locally or via the net? I bought mine from Faema in montreal and service as been good so far. They should be able to replace your machine.

pcguy74
Senior Member

Joined: 25 May 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Oshkosh, WI, USA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Nouva Simonelli Mac Cup V
Grinder: Nouva Simonelli MDX

Posted Tue Oct 9, 2012, 6:42am Subject: Re: Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

I had this same issue with no brewing. I had left my machine on for an extended period of time. I usually only leave it on for about 1.5 hours in the morning. On the weekends it is on for longer periods. This particular day though it was on for closer to 8-9 hours and it wouldn't brew. I switched off the machine, waited 10 minutes, turned on the machine and opened the valves for hot water and steam and both had just a little that came out. Next, I switched on the brew lever and got a dribble. I waited 2 minutes and moved the brew lever again a few times off and on. On about the 3rd try it kicked out warm water. I waited another few minutes and waited until the brew temp got back up to normal and everything worked fine. I have only experienced this once and suspect some form of pressure lock. Maybe some relief valve is not working as it should. It was a minor inconvenience and I've had no issues since. Got my plumbing all hooked up correctly now too, finally! I still love the machine. I suspect I need the new temp gauge and software too but I'll do that right before my machine hits the 1 year mark. Meanwhile, I'll just keep enjoying my excellent espresso.

Augsburg57
Senior Member

Joined: 3 Sep 2012
Posts: 15
Location: Seattle
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rocket R58
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E Type A

Posted Tue Oct 9, 2012, 12:03pm
Subject: Re: Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

VDelgado Said:

I´ve made some tests with a Scace thermometer and it takes 45min for the R58 to get to 100% temperature, in 20 min you get about 95%. The fact that the boiler got to temperature doesn't mean the nose is hot enough.

Posted October 7, 2012 link

@VDelgado: That's great you did the testing. I currently pull my first shot about 35 to 40 minutes after the timer turns on my machine in the morning. I might set the timer for a few minutes earlier now. I'd like to know what is your definition of "100% temperature"? Do you mean the Scace measures the anticipated brew temperature (taking into account the offset from the R58 manual)?

Spirit
Senior Member

Joined: 2 Mar 2006
Posts: 84
Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Rocket R58
Grinder: Baratza Vario-W
Roaster: Hottop KN-8828P-2

Posted Fri Oct 12, 2012, 6:00am Subject: Re: Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

pcguy74 Said: I had this same issue with no brewing. I had left my machine on for an extended period of time. I usually only leave it on for about 1.5 hours in the morning. On the weekends it is on for longer periods. This particular day though it was on for closer to 8-9 hours and it wouldn't brew. I switched off the machine, waited 10 minutes, turned on the machine and opened the valves for hot water and steam and both had just a little that came out. Next, I switched on the brew lever and got a dribble. I waited 2 minutes and moved the brew lever again a few times off and on. On about the 3rd try it kicked out warm water. I waited another few minutes and waited until the brew temp got back up to normal and everything worked fine. I have only experienced this once and suspect some form of pressure lock. Maybe some relief valve is not working as it should. It was a minor inconvenience and I've had no issues since. Got my plumbing all hooked up correctly now too, finally! I still love the machine. I suspect I need the new temp gauge and software too but I'll do that right before my machine hits the 1 year mark. Meanwhile, I'll just keep enjoying my excellent espresso. Posted October 9, 2012 link I went to Faema, it was a wrong contact I was told. So it's now back working great! Got a naked porta filter from espressotec, as well as other nice rocket accessories! :) Really happy with my setup now ;)

Max

AnthonyM
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 13
Location: Baltimore, MD

Espresso: Rocket R58, Rancillio Silvia...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Roaster: Hottop KN-8828

Posted Sat Oct 13, 2012, 11:02am Subject: Re: Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

Spirit Said: Can I ask where you bought the bottomless portafiler, I've been searching for one! :( Posted October 5, 2012 link I purchased the Rocket brand bottomless portafilter from Whole Latte Love. My Rancilio Silvia portafilter fits the R58 as well, and indeed Chris' Coffee lists the Rancilio bottomless portafilter as an R58 accessory. Click Here (www.wholelattelove.com) Click Here (www.chriscoffee.com)

Anthony M

AnthonyM
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 13
Location: Baltimore, MD

Espresso: Rocket R58, Rancillio Silvia...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Roaster: Hottop KN-8828

Posted Sat Oct 13, 2012, 11:20am Subject: Re: Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

Bgosselin Said: There is no reason for the Rocket not to be an extroardinary steamer. I also have a mini vivaldi with a 1.2 liter boiler. Steaming with my vivaldi is very strong. My rocket now is at par or slightly above my Vivaldi in term of steam. The R58 boiler is bigger and the heating element stronger. Posted October 5, 2012 link Is using a temperature controlled PID appropriate for the steam boiler? The primary objective is to create pressure from steam, rather than maintain a precise temperature. It seems like using a pressure stat for the steam boiler would eliminate the reaction-time issue, and allow one to control the pressure without having to worry about topping out with the maximum temperature. I can appreciate the digital PID control, so why not drive the steam boiler PID using a pressure sensor rather than a temperature probe?

Anthony M

DavecUK
Senior Member

Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 924
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Oct 13, 2012, 5:54pm
Subject: Re: Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

AnthonyM Said:

Is using a temperature controlled PID appropriate for the steam boiler?

Posted October 13, 2012 link

No it is not.

The primary objective is to create pressure from steam, rather than maintain a precise temperature.

Yes

It seems like using a pressure stat for the steam boiler would eliminate the reaction-time issue, and allow one to control the pressure without having to worry about topping out with the maximum temperature. I can appreciate the digital PID control, so why not drive the steam boiler PID using a pressure sensor rather than a temperature probe?

Yes

It is worse than you think though, because most if not all prosumer dual boiler machines (with PID controlled Steam boilers) share the PID settings with the brew boiler, the characteristics required for control of the brew boiler are the exact opposite of those required for the steam boiler. In countries, where heating element max power is limited due to their electrical systems (e.g USA), it's a poor choice. As the temperature nears the setpoint, power to the heating elements is progressively reduced (pulsed). This means a 1400W element acts like a 700W element a degree or two below the set point, with a 1200W element this can be even worse. More aggressive PID settings simply give brew boiler stability problems. Insulating brew boilers makes overshoots harder to recover from, necessitating even more conservative PID settings. Pressurestats give an instant FULL power response that's maintained as long as the steam pressure is down (effectively, while the steam tap is opened) and when they are switching a relay or SSR, they seem to have a long life. Using the correct water, I have had a pressurestat on my Duetto for 4.5 years with no problems, I fully expect it to last another 4.5 years or longer and mine switches an electromechanical relay, which should last in excess of 15 years.

No burn steam wands, brew boiler insulation, PID controlled steam boilers (sharing brew parameters).....each little bit adds up to reduce steaming effectiveness with the current design of dual boiler machines. Unfortunately this has been driven unwittingly by consumer comments in forums and pushed by large retailers trying to create a "difference" in the machines they sell. I have stayed silent on forums about this for years, I have mentioned it on many occasions to manufacturers though.....really it's something the manufacturers should deal with.

If you are buying a dual boiler machine look for:

No brew boiler insulation
A burny steam wand (not no burn)
Steam boiler controlled by pressurestat and SSR, or a PROPER dual control system not shared PID parameters.
Steam boiler of absolute minimum 1.2l
Brew boiler of around 700ml minimum if using an E61 group.
Ideally E61 group feed/thermosyphon from the top 1/3 and bottom points of the brew boiler
Short and large diameter thermosyphon tubes

There are quite a few "features" in modern prosumer dual boiler machines simply waiting to bite consumers in the ass.....It's a bit like the PPI (payment protection insurance) thing in the UK, you're being sold something you didn't know you needed, wanted or asked for. Unfortunately there are quite a few subtle things you could really do with, but are not being implemented on the machines you buy. There seems to be this fascination with technology (albeit 1980s technology) on the machines, rather than robustness, common sense, performance, price and ease of maintenance.

e.g. it took me more than 3 years to persuade a manufacturer to relocate their Gicar box to prevent failures (it was a relocation that took me all of 5 minutes to do)....3 years for gods sake!

qualin
Senior Member

Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 464
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3
Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A
Vac Pot: Looking to buy
Drip: Manual
Roaster: Considering?

Posted Sat Oct 13, 2012, 8:07pm
Subject: Re: Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

DavecUK Said:

If you are buying a dual boiler machine look for:
No brew boiler insulation
A burny steam wand (not no burn)
Steam boiler controlled by pressurestat and SSR, or a PROPER dual control system not shared PID parameters.
Steam boiler of absolute minimum 1.2l
Brew boiler of around 700ml minimum if using an E61 group.
Ideally E61 group feed/thermosyphon from the top 1/3 and bottom points of the brew boiler
Short and large diameter thermosyphon tubes

Posted October 13, 2012 link

I know it is off-topic on this thread, but which machines are on the market right now which match those specifications?

Obviously, not the Rocket R58?

DavecUK
Senior Member

Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 924
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 10:29am
Subject: Re: Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

qualin Said:

I know it is off-topic on this thread, but which machines are on the market right now which match those specifications?

Obviously, not the Rocket R58?

Posted October 13, 2012 link

None now after all the "improvements" that have been made....the first early Duettos came close, but that's about it, my pre-production prototype Duetto comes closest, but I have modified that considerably from when I first received it..the later production models are a little different (even the preheat system I designed has been slightly altered....to it's detriment). Fortunately the E61 is very forgiving in the dual boiler implementation, so they all work to a degree, some better than others.....however in all the testing I do (Including a pre production R58 prototype), I still struggle to find a dual boiler that gives me the same performance as my early Duetto and I suspect many early serial number Duetto owners would concur.

Looking at a couple of new dual boiler projects at the moment, but not really interested as it's still developing or rather rehashing "the same old tired designs, with different body shells". The glass bead mentality I find so annoying, still seems to exist with most manufacturers.....I now only want to participate in something really new, something designed with the consumer in mind, something a little more 21st century, with a harmonious marriage of old and 21st century technology.

jwoodyu
Senior Member

Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 704
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Roaster: Poppery

Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 11:19am Subject: Re: Rocket R58 Dual Boiler Machine Information and Picture

DavecUK Said: I suspect many early serial number Duetto owners would concur. Posted October 14, 2012 link Can you hang some production dates or actual serial numbers on that statement?

You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.

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