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Santos Dynamic 75 Espresso Machine - Is this a Heat Exchanger or SBDU machine???
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NCPaul
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Location: Asheville, NC
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: None yet
Grinder: Kitchen Aide Retro
Vac Pot: Nope
Drip: I'm all French Press
Roaster: Nope
Posted Sat Nov 17, 2012, 6:16pm
Subject: Santos Dynamic 75 Espresso Machine - Is this a Heat Exchanger or SBDU machine???
 

Hey folks,

Just found a great deal locally on a Santos Dynamic 75 espresso machine in like-new condition..  I can't find much info on it online which is making me thinK I probably shouldn't buy it for a home machine but it does look to be built like a rock and the price is about a 1/3 of new.   It appears to be French made but I can't tell from the descriptions if it is a heat-exchanger unit or a SBDU unit?  The parts drawings online do make it look like a HXer.  Anyone know anything about this unit?  Should I steer clear since it isn't made by one of the big names?
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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,368
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat Nov 17, 2012, 7:58pm
Subject: Re: Is this a Heat Exchanger or SBDU machine???
 

A picture would help.  Does it look like any of these?

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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coffee_no_sugar
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 352
Location: USA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: pavoni pub, brasilia club
Grinder: mazzer sj, mdf, infinity
Drip: melitta clarity
Roaster: popcorn
Posted Sat Nov 17, 2012, 8:21pm
Subject: Re: Santos Dynamic 90 Espresso Machine - Is this a Heat Exchanger or SBDU ???
 

I searched the web and couldn't find anything about a Santos 90 espresso machine.  Where did you find the parts diagram?  I even checked the santos french website and didn't find anything.    

Several months ago I wanted a Silva+ SBDU espresso machine.  So I did some research into the Santos 75 espresso machine.  Was surprised that a machine at its price point would still use bimetallic thermostats.  Ended up getting an original version ECM Botticelli.
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NCPaul
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Location: Asheville, NC
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: None yet
Grinder: Kitchen Aide Retro
Vac Pot: Nope
Drip: I'm all French Press
Roaster: Nope
Posted Sun Nov 18, 2012, 8:02am
Subject: Re: Santos Dynamic 75 Espresso Machine - Heat Xger or SBDU ???  (Corrected!)
 

Yikes - my error.   I meant the Santos Dynamic 75!   I don't know how I mistakenly wrote 90.

For those who want to check out a picture and specs:
http://www.santos.fr/75.html

So, you've researched this one?   Would you rate it better than a Silvia or Isomac Venus or about the same?   It is designed for commercial use so would be likely more durable and able to handle being on all-day but I don't really need that.  In fact, the larger capacity boiler would probably be a disadvantage for a home unit where you want it to heat sooner.  Maybe I should stay with the plan to get a Lelit.  This probably would only make sense for me if it was a Heat Exchanger unit and would have better temp control than a Silvia or Lelit PL43.

Thanks for input in advance.
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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,368
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Nov 18, 2012, 9:23am
Subject: Re: Santos Dynamic 75 Espresso Machine - Heat Xger or SBDU ???  (Corrected!)
 

OK, it seems like it's an SBDU from looking at the used manual, but it's curious that it never specifically says so one way or the other.  If it is -- and, again, it does seem like an SBDU -- it's one of the world's most expensive at over $1K.  So I have to ask:  why are you looking at a Santos, when a) none of us have ever heard of this brand, b) you're comparing to a Silvia or a Venus -- both known entities, and c) why are you looking -- specifically -- at any of these machines?

Don't misunderstand my questions.  I'm sure that, despite being French, that Santos Dynamic 75 would work.  So, too, the Silvia and the Venus, but why these machines?

Let's start with the basics, OK?

Standard Questions:
1)  What kind of drinks do you like/want to make?  (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.)
2)  How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at ay one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.)
3)  How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week?  (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.)
4)  Can you plumb a machine directly into the water supply, or do you want/need a pourover machine with its own reservoir?
5)  Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit?
6)  What is your budget for a new machine?  Does that also include a grinder?  If not, what is your budget for a grinder?

Now it may turn out that, indeed, the Silvia (for example) is the perfect machine for you, but without knowing more about you and what you need in a machine, it's difficult to make any specific recommendations . . .

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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coffee_no_sugar
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 352
Location: USA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: pavoni pub, brasilia club
Grinder: mazzer sj, mdf, infinity
Drip: melitta clarity
Roaster: popcorn
Posted Sun Nov 18, 2012, 9:29am
Subject: Re: Santos Dynamic 75 Espresso Machine - Heat Xger or SBDU ???  (Corrected!)
 

The Silvia, Venus and Santos 75 all use bimetallic thermostats attached to the outside of the boiler.  For a premium machine, a better temperature controller should have been used.  I've never seen a Santos or Venus, so I won't try ranking the three machines.   I've used a machine which has the same boiler and group as the Lelit.  It's a great beginner's machine.  Easy to get a good espresso but hard to get a great espresso.   Probably a combination of a small boiler and a low-mass group head.
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NCPaul
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Location: Asheville, NC
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: None yet
Grinder: Kitchen Aide Retro
Vac Pot: Nope
Drip: I'm all French Press
Roaster: Nope
Posted Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:34am
Subject: Re: Santos Dynamic 75  - Is this a Heat Exchanger or SBDU machine???
 

Coffee_no_sugar - thanks for the input.  That's the kind of info I was looking for.  It appears to be a built like a brick so is probably just a commercial version of a SBDU machine.  Crazy that they didn't go HXer at that price point.

Jason - while I wasn't really going down the "What machine should I buy..." direction, I am ready for some input on that question so let's get into your questions.

There is one complicating factor that affects my answers.  My wife isn't bought into the whole Espresso Machine thing.  We have been a French Press family for 15 years and she doesn't want to give up ANY counterspace to more crap in the kitchen.  Now, my wife does REALLY like coffee so her opinion may change if the quality is quite good.   So, this will start out as a hobby for me and the machine will likely live in my shop.  If it wins her over, it can move up to the kitchen.  Worst case, it may eventually move to our weekend cabin.    So, this tells you a few things: 1)  Size does matter  2)  Looks / styling may matter 3) Quality espresso definitely matters.  Frankly, my wife would probably be happiest with a SuperAutomatic machine and there is a like-new Jura Capresso with all the bells & whistles for sale locally on Craiglist for $430 (like new) but where is the fun in that?!?



To answer the other questions:

1)  Probably mostly Americanos during the week and Latte's and Cappuccino's on weekends.   Maybe the odd Latte in evening.

2)  Probably never more than 2 drinks at a time so HXer machine is not a requirement.

3)  Number of drinks:  probably 2-3 Americanos per day on weekdays and 4 Latte / Cappuccino's on weekends.  We don't do much entertaining so that is not a concern.

4)  I'll want a pour over at first but if it wins a place in the kitchen, it can be plumbed in easily.

5)  No only 15 amp.

6)  Budget - I'm thinking $600-700 for machine + grinder.  Even that will land me in the dog house.  

You asked why I am considering a barely-known machine like the Santos.  Because of my budget and love of Craigslist, I've been focused on good, lightly-used machines (e.g. Craigslist or Ebay).  The Santos is under consideration only because I found one for $400 that is described as "Like New' condition and is within driving distance.   I passed on a Expobar Lever early on for $650 only because it would blow my budget once I got a grinder for it (that would have put me in the dog house for sure).  

In my search, I've been focused on the Silvia, Isomac Venus, & Lelit PL043.   Mostly because I think the SBDU machine will suffice for my needs and all 3 have a relatively small footprint, and good reputations.  I prefer the looks to of the Venus over the Silvia and like the fact that it has the group head more directly attached to the boiler for thermal control (and a better drip tray).   I'm now starting to lean to the Lelit PL043 because I can but it with a the Lelit grinder for $599 new and it has a small footprint and is a decent entry-level machine.  The lightweight nature of the Lelit and 57mm head turn me off a little.  Looks are okay.    (I'm an engineer who used to do data acquisition and controls so adding a PID would be a cakewalk for me but I kinda prefer to keep things simple in my kitchen.)

One thing - one of the stores told me that the Le'lit PL43 is a "Pressurized Basket" whereas the Venus and Silvia are traditional 'real' espresso machines.  Is that true?  I can't find anything online saying the Le'lit is a pressurized basket.

As far as grinders, I was leaning towards a refurbished Ascaso iMini but after reading bad reviews, I'm now focused on the Ascaso iSteel or Le'Lit PL53.  (The used Rockys are out there but they are so big!)

So - what do ya'll think.  Am I looking at the right machines or off in the wrong direction entirely?
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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,368
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Nov 18, 2012, 1:10pm
Subject: Re: Santos Dynamic 75  - Is this a Heat Exchanger or SBDU machine???
 

To start with . . .

Using an SBDU machine to make anything more than two drinks at a time will be a ROYAL P.I.T.A -- most of us upgraded to an HX or DB because we reached a point where making even ONE milk drink on an SBDU was a pain.  But certainly, to start with (and in consideration of the W.A.F.), I'd recommend an SBDU.

If you want to make Americanos, many SBDU machines can deliver hot water through the steam wand with the pump engaged, but it's something to check on before you buy.  Similarly, most SBDUs -- indeed, all of the ones I can think of off the top of my head -- are not adaptable to plumb-in, so . . . .

I cannot speak to what's available on craigslist or eBay, as these are constantly changing, but you want to spend as much as you can on the grinder.  In terms of machines, I'd look at the Le'Lit and pass on the Silvia (overpriced for what it is).  Also, look at the Gaggia Classic (on sale right now for $349).

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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NCPaul
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Location: Asheville, NC
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: None yet
Grinder: Kitchen Aide Retro
Vac Pot: Nope
Drip: I'm all French Press
Roaster: Nope
Posted Sun Nov 18, 2012, 4:48pm
Subject: Re: Santos Dynamic 75  - Is this a Heat Exchanger or SBDU machine???
 

So, is the Le'lit PL041 is Pressurized Basket?  If so, does it work effectively as a non-pressurized basket or does that require replacing the head?


Any feedback about the Lelit PL53 grinder?  Good for the money or should I look at something a bit better in the $300 range?

-P
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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,368
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Nov 18, 2012, 4:53pm
Subject: Re: Santos Dynamic 75  - Is this a Heat Exchanger or SBDU machine???
 

NCPaul Said:

So, is the Le'lit PL041 is Pressurized Basket?

Posted November 18, 2012 link

No.

NCPaul Said:

Any feedback about the Lelit PL53 grinder?  Good for the money or should I look at something a bit better in the $300 range?

Posted November 18, 2012 link

It will work, but I'd look at this.

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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