I found that lighter (european) roasts are sometimes physically in a state, that its very hard, even sometimes impossible, to get the desired grind parameters out of the mill. Even if your setting the grinder to fine powder. Exactly same grinder settings, only different beans may result in a dramatic different, oscillating between superb and unusable output.
Its all about beans! So - if you try another, more fatty batch from a local roaster, chances are, your getting to were you want.
I tried to find out why that is so. Wasting a few pounds of coffee.
As far as my "Indiana Jones" (I was touching a sensitive point to some quite aggressive industrial producers) investigations came where: Industrial roasters generally treat the beans with not less 650 Celsius for about 5 minutes or so to get the job on large batches done as fast as possible - evaporating a lot of oil and leaving more basic / wooden material (containing tannins) back in the (then empty) beans. These so harsh treated beans-material give (even thought the grind size is the same as with the local roasters - which works as desired in the grinder / machine) as powder less physical resistance in the brew-head. Leading to bitter, sour tannin taste and far to fast extraction. Smaller roasters work with smaller machines a friction of the "industry" temperatures, let the beans roast slowly up to or more then 25 minutes, cool these smaller batches faster down after the second crack (also important - not when the book but when the ear and eye of the roaster says: "now!") and therefore the beans retain more of the desired oils. These oils are responsible for taste and give because of their slimy physical state far more resistance in the brew-head, then the dry wooden industrial stuff falling through, as well as a better taste and a easier grind.
I found that lighter (european) roasts are sometimes physically in a state, that its very hard, even sometimes impossible, to get the desired grind parameters out of the mill. Even if your setting the grinder to fine powder. Exactly same grinder settings, only different beans may result in a dramatic different, oscillating between superb and unusable output.
Its all about beans! So - if you try another, more fatty batch from a local roaster, chances are, your getting to were you want.
I tried to find out why that is so. Wasting a few pounds of coffee.
im doing my learning using light roasted beans, i find the dark roasted to loose most of the flavours. yes its pretty hard and huge waste of coffee. im still trying to prefect this specially the grind setting, what i do is to de gas, currently im able to do the 16days, i dont know if its still optimum but if i pull before that i get hints to slight sour
Howdy folks... been away quite a long time but heard the espresso calling, and now I'm back. Just received my BES900XL today (from Amazon) and it shows a serial number starting with 1150. Very disappointing that stock is still that old at the warehouse from where it was shipped.
Need some clarification... saw a post from Phil on this thread that the OPV problem was resolved in units with SN 12XX and up, but then saw other posts from folks who had SN 1150 stating their pressures were OK. The engineer in me wants to understand if this machine is in the old lot where the OPV fix was not yet applied at the factory. I have not tried it yet and am tempted to send it back to try for a newer manufactured unit so I can be assured the fix was applied as well as assured I have the latest firmware updates since the initial production run.
Thoughts!
Update: Couldn't resist and decided to set it all up for a test run. Did about 6 pulls with varying doses and grind sizes and the pressure gauge consistently hit the top of the normal band (10 bar) on every pull. Seems to me this will be OK, but the purist in me wants the pressure to be 9.0 bar :) Also, did the daily back-flush Phil recommends with the single double-wall and the rubber stopper, and the pressure consistently topped out at 10.5 bar. Again, looking for thoughts on whether I am dealing with a borderline over-pressure problem on this new unit.
cafeespresso Senior Member Joined: 16 May 2005 Posts: 105 Location: South Florida, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Office Pulser Grinder: Baratza Vario Roaster: FR 8+, SC/Turbo CO
Posted Sun Nov 25, 2012, 7:02am Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
I ordered a BDB on Friday...I've been looking at this machine since it came out. Can't wait to test it
I bought from a place with easy returns, just in case.
I'm not an expert, but I do have a fair amount of experience with good grinders (Vario, Mazzer Mini, OE Pharos) and a decent machine (Expobar office). The Expobar has serve me well for over 6-7 years. I also roast my own beans with a Stir Crazy/Turbo Oven and some times with a heat gun/dog bowl.
I was debating between the bdb the Vivaldi II/Dream. But the value of this machine won out. If one is patient, this machine can be found for around $1,000.
RaymondParker Senior Member Joined: 10 Nov 2012 Posts: 41 Location: Vienna
Posted Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:43am Subject: The old lioness 'La Pavoni’ finally came home...
...to stay.
Over the last 30 years, I’ve seen them all. The products of Italian, Swiss, the Chinese producers espresso-makers - they all have seen my desk. The E61’ones, the hand-level as well as the spring-level, the manual, semiautomatic, the full automatic 7/11 shelf waiting plastic bomber. From the finest top notch G3 gear down to the bottom of a (stunning nice crema delivering) stovetop “Brikka” from Bialetti. Call me crazy, I’m sending the (excellent working) Breville BES900 and the complementing grinder back to Amazon next week. Why? The reason is, that my decennium long bunkered ’Pavoni ’Europiccola Professionale’ made it accidentally out of her black dungeon to bright daylight. I tested side by side the newest and finest crop of Breville, the BSE900 against the Pavoni ’Europiccola Professionale’ I brought up from my cellar were I had parked the fat lady for the last 15 years. Only to find out that I have not completely emptied the water tank before storing her in a dry place under a oil foil. Anyhow, without any mending I fired the machine up (expecting anything between a full burnout of all power lines in the city, an midsize explosion in the kitchen or simply nothing) and draw out of the single basket (8 gramm very fine grinded, tightly tamped, freshly roasted beans) a heaven like ’Ristretto’. I took the cup to the side before the handle was in final position, to get the Ristretto ideally short. As similar good ’Ristretto’ I drew out of the Breville 900 (13 Grams singe basket, same grind size and tamping as with the Pavoni). But only similar. The difference between both was stunning, the one out of the Pavoni tasted a tad better. I don't know why. Could be that the Pavoni has no plastic or PVC tubes in its (very basic functional down to the roots) inner working. Could be that the grandma Pavoni is full metal without a piece of artificial material (opposite to the BES900) touching the water. I don't know. And I know very well the downside of Pavonis overheating (not allowing for rapidly succeeding shots) and the Breville’s advantage having, due to tightly computer controlled environment the same firmly set shot quality over and over again. But I’m not a coffee shop. For a single or twin household, needing about eight shots of excellent coffee a day, also if your wife insists on finely micro-frothed milk on her Cappuccino and not in rapid succession, the Pavoni is the definite choice. That small quantity is my personal need. Anything above, I would go for the BES 900. The BES 900 has a hard,if not impossible to beat costs / value / benefit rating. So does my Stone Age Pavoni.
Posted Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:58pm Subject: Re: The old lioness 'La Pavoni’ finally came home...
RaymondParker Said:
I don't know why. Could be that the Pavoni has no plastic or PVC tubes in its (very basic functional down to the roots) inner working. Could be that the grandma Pavoni is full metal without a piece of artificial material (opposite to the BES900) touching the water. I don't know.
cafeespresso Senior Member Joined: 16 May 2005 Posts: 105 Location: South Florida, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Office Pulser Grinder: Baratza Vario Roaster: FR 8+, SC/Turbo CO
Posted Sun Nov 25, 2012, 2:09pm Subject: Re: The old lioness 'La Pavoni’ finally came home...
RaymondParker Said:
...to stay.
Over the last 30 years, I’ve seen them all. The products of Italian, Swiss, the Chinese producers espresso-makers - they all have seen my desk. The E61’ones, the hand-level as well as the spring-level, the manual, semiautomatic, the full automatic 7/11 shelf waiting plastic bomber. From the finest top notch G3 gear down to the bottom of a (stunning nice crema delivering) stovetop “Brikka” from Bialetti. Call me crazy, I’m sending the (excellent working) Breville BES900 and the complementing grinder back to Amazon next week. Why? The reason is, that my decennium long bunkered ’Pavoni ’Europiccola Professionale’ made it accidentally out of her black dungeon to bright daylight. I tested side by side the newest and finest crop of Breville, the BSE900 against the Pavoni ’Europiccola Professionale’ I brought up from my cellar were I had parked the fat lady for the last 15 years. Only to find out that I have not completely emptied the water tank before storing her in a dry place under a oil foil. Anyhow, without any mending I fired the machine up (expecting anything between a full burnout of all power lines in the city, an midsize explosion in the kitchen or simply nothing) and draw out of the single basket (8 gramm very fine grinded, tightly tamped, freshly roasted beans) a heaven like ’Ristretto’. I took the cup to the side before the handle was in final position, to get the Ristretto ideally short. As similar good ’Ristretto’ I drew out of the Breville 900 (13 Grams singe basket, same grind size and tamping as with the Pavoni). But only similar. The difference between both was stunning, the one out of the Pavoni tasted a tad better. I don't know why. Could be that the Pavoni has no plastic or PVC tubes in its (very basic functional down to the roots) inner working. Could be that the grandma Pavoni is full metal without a piece of artificial material (opposite to the BES900) touching the water. I don't know. And I know very well the downside of Pavonis overheating (not allowing for rapidly succeeding shots) and the Breville’s advantage having, due to tightly computer controlled environment the same firmly set shot quality over and over again. But I’m not a coffee shop. For a single or twin household, needing about eight shots of excellent coffee a day, also if your wife insists on finely micro-frothed milk on her Cappuccino and not in rapid succession, the Pavoni is the definite choice. That small quantity is my personal need. Anything above, I would go for the BES 900. The BES 900 has a hard,if not impossible to beat costs / value / benefit rating. So does my Stone Age Pavoni.
One thing makes me wonder: If the Pavoni is so great, why has it been gathering dust in your basement for 15 years?
Good question - easy to answer. The Pavoni went to my basement for the ease of use giving way for other, more comfortable, gear. As mentioned, the Pavoni has its drawbacks. In the extremely busy 7/24 space I occupied in my own firm there was simply not the time and concentrating on the matter of the creation of the perfect shot - no time for caring such side matters when things are in full swing. Now, that I have retired and enjoy the benefits of a broaden and fuller time frame, (I post this entry from the cruise ship MSC ARMONIA in the Red Sea between Sharm el Sheik and Eilat) I can care more for the finer things in life. And enjoy with the Pavoni, the one and only espressomachine which has made it up to a marble stand into the 'museum of modern art’, the real values in life more. To be able to appreciate real values, sometimes you have to ripe up to them too.
So the adventure continues. I had to take a trip to Atlanta for a client and while I was out my stuff from Seattle Coffee arrived. Have a smaller frothing pitcher (16oz) so I don't end up making 3 servings of milk every time I want a latte. I also receive a pair of shot glasses (I don't recall ordering them) and a $10 gift card (I'll use it).
The big deal though is the smart grinder. It's a pretty nice piece of kit. I got it setup and then watched a video. When I ordered it I didn't realize that I could just hold the porta filter under it - very nice surprise. For my first attempt I set it to the finest espresso setting filled the portafilter and tamped as usual. The BDB didn't like it - shot up to 10bar and stayed there for 30 seconds without any espresso coming out. I cancelled it and tossed the puck in the trash. I rolled the grinder back 1 more setting and repeated. This time I got 9.5 bar and the shot took about 30 seconds to finish. Tastes like rainbows and sunshine.
I'm going to take a class in a few weeks. Can't wait to see how good I can get with a little training.
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