kschueleraugsburg Senior Member Joined: 1 Sep 2006 Posts: 14 Location: Chicago Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Breville BES900XL Grinder: Nuova Simonelli
Posted Tue Nov 27, 2012, 3:22pm Subject: Thoughts on new machine options
I'm in the process of buying a new machine for home use. The previous machine was a Vibiemme Domobar Super, single boiler and vibration pump. Matched with a Mazzer Mini, this was a pretty good combination.
Now I'm in looking for my next machine (no longer own the Vibiemme, don't ask).
Presently there are three options, and I would appreciate any and all comments from individuals on this forum.
Vibiemme Domobar Double-Boiler with rotary pump, tank or direct plumbing.
Rocket R58, also Double-Boiler with rotary pump, tank or direct plumbing.
Nuova Simonelli Appia, single group, rotary pump, direct plumbing only.
If I had my way, I would buy an Aurelia two group, and build a new house around it... ;-)
In reality, I need to watch a budget, want a practical machine for low use, something that I will enjoy using (I'm certified barista, just for the fun of it), I love technical stuff (being an engineer myself). The machine is always a great conversation piece when guests are over, and I enjoy fixing Americanos, Lattes, Cappucini and Espressi when entertaining. Personally, I drink only straight double-espressos, maybe a little bit longer pulls compared to the strict 1oz. rule.
jwoodyu Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2010 Posts: 705 Location: Michigan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Allex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major Roaster: Poppery
Posted Tue Nov 27, 2012, 3:46pm Subject: Re: Thoughts on new machine options
At the risk of being accused of being a DB snob, from those three i would go with the Rocket. If you need to watch the funds Chris has a Duetto 2 in the buyers remorse section or $2100.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,772 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Wed Nov 28, 2012, 7:06am Subject: Re: Thoughts on new machine options
I don't think any of them would be a poor choice, it really comes down to what you can get the machines for, your budget and which you like the looks of the best.
Congrats on putting plumb in high on your list, you will REALLY enjoy the machine a lot more not worrying about or even thinking about filling a water tank or emptying the drip tray.
In my personal use of my equipment, I have a few volumetric dosed machines and I will only go back to a semi automatic machine kicking and leaving claw marks in the concrete, there is really that much difference in ease of use. I offer this up just as something for you to think about when looking at new machines, it really is a nice feature to have.
At this price point, look at all machines both HX and DB, see which features you like more and which machine you like the looks of the best. There is no difference in the cup but methods of operation do differ.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
But honestly, I do realize that the Appia is the highest priced on the list, and I'm not spending that money lightly. On the other hand, something I don't want to happen is: buy a machine, and then finding out I made a wrong choice and a bit more research, and possibly a few $$ more could have avoided that shortfall.
On the direct plumbing: yes, I would love to have that option, BUT: what concerns me somewhat that with an Appia I must have a direct water line close by, where the other machines at least offer the option of using the tank.
In your experiene, how long can a water line be for a machine? In my kitchen, I might have to route the line and it could be 10 ft. in the one location, or even 25 ft. in the other location? I always thought that length of water line does not make much difference (I once had a refrigerator connected over a 30ft. plastic water line - but maybe that is different).
Feeling drawn to a tank/direct plumb hybrid at the moment.
JPF Senior Member Joined: 3 Jun 2010 Posts: 209 Location: NJ Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Mini Vivaldi, Pre-millenium... Grinder: Dosered SJ, Resurrected... Vac Pot: Yama Siphon Drip: Technivorm Roaster: Behmor, Poppery I
Posted Wed Nov 28, 2012, 7:37am Subject: Re: Thoughts on new machine options
The Appia is the only "commercial duty" machine on your list, and the only HX, so it's definitely a different animal, but if you really would like a two group, then maybe that's your answer. It's also the most expensive machine of the three. You may or may not like the clearance between the group and the drip tray on the Appia. It's extra large, designed so you can pull shots directly into tall cups for lattes-to-go.
Posted Wed Nov 28, 2012, 9:30am Subject: Re: Thoughts on new machine options
kschueleraugsburg Said:
In your experiene, how long can a water line be for a machine? In my kitchen, I might have to route the line and it could be 10 ft. in the one location, or even 25 ft. in the other location? I always thought that length of water line does not make much difference (I once had a refrigerator connected over a 30ft. plastic water line - but maybe that is different).
Can only tell you my own experience. Plumbed in with 15mm copper pipe running about 4 metres from the previous take-off point (dishwasher).
Routed through a pressure limiter dialled to 4 bar, then ~ 3 metres of 15mm copper into a sequence of: non-return valve: inline cutoff valve: brita inline filter, then flexible pipe to machine. Gauge on the pressure limiter says 4 bar, so does the gauge on the machine. Ok, neither of them are the most accurate devices around, but indicates to me there's no noticeable difference in the pressure and definitely there isn't any with the flow.
I think in the USA you normally use 3/8" bore pipework rather than metric 15mm or 1/2" ? I'd have thought that would be fine, but not sure about going very small. With a rotary pump you do have to make sure the flow is sufficient not to starve the pump of sufficient water. I'm certain that somewhere on the web you'll find pressure drop/flow tables for different diameter pipes.
As has been said earlier, you will not regret doing it. Plumb out too if at all possible.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,772 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Wed Nov 28, 2012, 10:13am Subject: Re: Thoughts on new machine options
My machine is on about 18 feet of 1/4" plastic line by the time it makes all the twists and zigzags to thread through the cabs. It has been run this way for about 4 years with no problems. It may take a few seconds longer to fill the boiler than it might if larger line had been used but the machine has suffered no ill effects that I can tell.
I drain into a 4 gallon water jug from the drip tray, this was the easiest way to do it for me, it would have been a long and likely impossible to maintain proper drain slope run if I had tried to go back to the sink.
We live a good 1000 feet above the pump at the water distrobution station and we had to sign a waiver that we accept the low water pressure because of that. Our pressure is about 30 psi at the front of the house where the water line enters via 3/4" pipe. It then flows through a rather useless pressure regulator set to 45 psi because of local building codes and into the house in 3/4" copper pipe. Under the sink I have a particle and a carbon filter then into a point of use water softener and from there out to the refer and the espresso machine.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
kschueleraugsburg Senior Member Joined: 1 Sep 2006 Posts: 14 Location: Chicago Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Breville BES900XL Grinder: Nuova Simonelli
Posted Wed Nov 28, 2012, 11:06am Subject: Re: Thoughts on new machine options
calblacksmith Said:
I drain into a 4 gallon water jug from the drip tray, this was the easiest way to do it for me, it would have been a long and likely impossible to maintain proper drain slope run if I had tried to go back to the sink.
How long (time) can you go until the 4 gal. jug is filled up? I agree this sounds like a doable alternative. The return line drain was always a concern for me. A kitchen at home isn't designed to purpose as a cafe counter would be (now, if I had my way ...), and routing a decent supply and drain line isn't that simple.
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