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A pid on a Quick Mill Andreja or other HX machines?
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sascha_d
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Dec 2012
Posts: 3
Location: Minneapolis
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia w/pid
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 5:42am
Subject: A pid on a Quick Mill Andreja or other HX machines?
 

Hello all, I've used Coffee Geek as a research resource for the last 12 years or so and I finally have a question that I can't find an answer for, so I signed up to see if anyone might have an answer.  I've had a Rancilio Silvia for just over 3 years. I modded it with a pid a few months after I got it as the temperature surfing was a pain.  I'm now considering upgrading to something like an Andreja Premium or similar and I'm noticing that these machines don't have a temperature gauge and that people are discussing how to temperature surf with them on forums.

I really like my pid. It's like a security blanket. I'm feeling reluctant to 1) upgrade to something that doesn't have temperature control or 2) pay extra for a pid mod.

So I'm wondering what the consensus is on temperature controls in the higher end machines? Is it wrong to feel like I need it? Is it overkill? Can I just use the green light or whatever? I know the Silvia needs a pid because of the great range of temperature you can get in their green light/red light set up.

Just to be clear, I understand that there's flushing involved to cool off the water in the HX because it's at steam temp. I understand *why* things are like they are. I just want to know if it's an acceptable state of being?

Thanks,
Sascha
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 8,034
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 6:00am
Subject: Re: A pid on a Quick Mill Andreja or other HX machines?
 

Actually, this subject is discussed VERY often, I am suprised that you were not able to find the many threads on this topic.

If you understand that a flush is mandatory on a HX system that has been sitting idle for a while and if you understand WHY this is true, and yet you still want a PID on the system, then you are a prime candidate in my opinion for a dual boiler system.


First, a Pstat is a much tighter temp regulation than the snap thermostats that come on a SBDU machine such as a Sylvia. The Pstat when working properly will keep temp within a couple of deg F not the tens or twenties of degrees that the snap thermostats work to.

Next, the way a HX system operates and with the large thermal mass of the groups, very often a E61, tighter regulation just isn't need as the pull is consistent through the shot and from shot to shot with the added ability to alter the individual shot a few deg F from the nominal setting of the system that you do not get on a DB system.

If you are comfortable, or more comfortable with a digital readout, fine, the DB machine seems to be custom designed for you, buy one and enjoy!

If you are able to get out of the SBDU mind set, then you likely will be able to be very happy with a HX setup.

I have a Sylvia WITH PID for use as a vacation machine as I can transport it easily. I also have a plumbed in HX at home. The plumb in thing aside, I am able to pull much better and much more consistently great shots on my HX than the PID Sylvia but as I very often say, YMMV!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 7:04am
Subject: Re: A pid on a Quick Mill Andreja or other HX machines?
 

Waste of time as far as any reason of temperature control for brew water stability is concerned. For steaming, actually degrades performance, definitely a don't do. The manufacturers have made HX machines with PID's, but that's just because they think people want them, so they will make them....whether it's right or not. It's the same with "no burn steam wands", fixes that well known problem of loads of people "burning" themselves when steaming...again at the expense of performance. The last great one is the "hot" sticker on the E61 group, which some people leave on....in case they forget and "burn" themselves. After a year or so, it damages the finish of the group and proves very difficult to remove.


Designers....you gotta love em!
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 8,034
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 2:13pm
Subject: Re: A pid on a Quick Mill Andreja or other HX machines?
 

I think we said the same thing.
Actually yes for brew temp control it is worthless, but if used as a replacement for a broken Pstat and is operated in the same way and temp as a Pstat, it will not degrade the use of the machine at all, it actually reduces the number of mechanical parts but adds electronic ones to the mix so it's a toss up really but when used to just replace a Pstat, not a big deal. Not a big positive at all for brew temp either though.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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sascha_d
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Dec 2012
Posts: 3
Location: Minneapolis
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia w/pid
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 6:48pm
Subject: Re: A pid on a Quick Mill Andreja or other HX machines?
 

Thanks!

I see a lot of discussions on here about HX vs double boiler and things but couldn't find the actual thing I wanted to know which was, is the temp variation on the nicer machines small enough that temp surfing is not a big deal or even that necessary?  I think I was mostly looking for reassurance that the pid was unnecessary as is the temp surfing.  

And yeah, I thought the whole no burn steam wands were kind of funny. Because duh, they're hot!
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 7:47pm
Subject: Re: A pid on a Quick Mill Andreja or other HX machines?
 

calblacksmith Said:

I think we said the same thing. .

Posted December 3, 2012 link

We did, I was just reinforcing your comments....because although it's a "well known fact", the manufacturers still somehow sell PID'ed HX machines, whereas a pressurestat+ssr or simple digital temp controller would work much better.
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