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tdifraia
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 78
Location: Boston
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM67
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Bunn
Posted Fri Dec 14, 2012, 7:53am
Subject: Re: which machine to buy
 

NobbyR Said:

Perhaps you'll be even far better off with the espresso machine you use now and an even better grinder. You could still upgrade your machine later on.

Posted December 14, 2012 link

It would be my first machine. Ive never pulled a shot and am looking for a beginners set up. But the most important thing I seem to be getting from the experienced posters is to invest in a good grinder.
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,479
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri Dec 14, 2012, 9:35am
Subject: Re: which machine to buy
 

Congrats!
You heard us!
I know it does not "feel" right but the grinder REALLY IS THAT IMPORTANT!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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tdifraia
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 78
Location: Boston
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM67
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Bunn
Posted Sun Dec 16, 2012, 8:55pm
Subject: Re: which machine to buy
 

After many hours of research I am torn between A:Kyocera Ceramic Manual Hand Coffee Grinder CM-45 CF and a Gaggia 14101 Classic =$471
                                                                            B:Lelit PL041 Espresso Machine & PL53 Espresso Grinder =$599
                                                                            C:Lelit PL041TQE has PID installed and Kyocera Ceramic Manual Hand Coffee Grinder CM-45 CF =$674

Any recommendations for one or the other? Will the PID help me make better shots, even though Ive never pulled a shot? Or should I trade in the PID for an electric grinder, Or go with (A),save a duece learn my technique and eventually upgrade after I gain some experience with making shots.
Again Im fond of mild drinks along with an occasional shot. It would be me and my wife drinking a cup or 2 each in the morning, and another cup after dinner. So please vote for A,B, or C and help out a greatful newbie. I am staying away from used machines because of a few horror stories Ive heard.
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,479
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Sun Dec 16, 2012, 9:32pm
Subject: Re: which machine to buy
 

The PID will not make better shots but it will help you to be much more consistent and on this class of machine (starter) you need all the help you can get with the consistency.
Many have a manual grinder and are quite happy with it, others quickly tire of the cranking and only you can know how important the motor will be.

The Lelet has a pretty good record so you can be comfortable with it, but so does the Classic.

Either way, you should be Ok, Sorry to not be able to give more guidance that that!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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tdifraia
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 78
Location: Boston
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM67
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Bunn
Posted Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:10pm
Subject: Re: which machine to buy
 

I glad to hear that these machines have good track records. As far as the grinder goes, I'm more concerned with taste than convenience. I have read quite a few negative reviews of the Classics tank leaking because it is made of aluminum or stainless steel as well as its poor heating xfer quality in comparison to the brass tank used in the Lelit. So I gathered the Classic may make a VG shot, but it will not be as consistent, nor last as long as the Lelit. I am really leaning towards the hand grinder and spending the xtra money saved on the Lelit w/ PID so I can adjust the water temp accordingly. The thing is I have not yet developed the skill to tell what adjustments to make (up or down) in water temp to make better tasting espresso. But I am willing to learn.
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Coffeenoobie
Senior Member
Coffeenoobie
Joined: 11 Dec 2011
Posts: 2,972
Location: PNW
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: N S Oscar
Grinder: K30 & Vario W
Posted Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:34am
Subject: Re: which machine to buy
 

If I was going to get a single boiler I would want a pid.  Even if I had to hand grind for a while.

 
Coffeenoobie

Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder.

My coffee treasure map...
Click Here (maps.google.com)

Oscar trick out: http://s156.photobucket.com/user/GandBteam/story/14231
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artmanr
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Chicago
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Coffee Deluxe, Gran...
Grinder: Baratza Virtuoso, Baratza...
Posted Tue Dec 18, 2012, 8:06am
Subject: Getting my learners permit...
 

I can't tell you what machine to buy, however I will tell you about my Gaggia experience.  It has been very good overall.  I considered different machines in the $400 and down category.  Luckily, I found this forum and steered away from the department store machines that are only espresso machines in name.  I purchased a Gaggia Coffee Deluxe as that fit my budget at the time.  

What do I like about the Gaggia?  I like the heft and quality of the portafilter and brew group.  I like that it is easily torn down for cleaning and maintenance.  I like that there are instructions all over the internet and especially the yahoo user group that explain in detail how to use and maintain the machine.  I like that it heats up FAST and recovers fast too.

I don't steam much, so it's not really important, but I find it more than adequate for the occasional milk drink.  I usually steam 6 ounces of milk in a stainless steel 20 oz frothing pitcher.  But, that is probably once a week or less on average.  

So, making good espresso at home for less money was my initial goal.  Now, I find that the quality of my coffee is better than I can get at just about any cafe around and especially the chain stores.  In that respect, I've achieved my goal: better coffee, made at home, for less money than I pay at shops.  I've probably saved $2000 or more by having coffee at home in the morning over the 4 years of owning the Gaggia.

Then the bug bites...curiosity...ambition...nay obsession?  Whatever, you want to do more and better.  

Then you start looking at your other options.  Which are many and  mind boggling.  I think the forum contributors here really help by asking you to focus on what type of drinks you make, how many you make, how often....etc.  Obviously, if you entertain a lot and want to share your craft with your friends, then you need something more suited to mass production than the entry level machines (which are geared towards the lower production quantities - one or two at a sitting - but that doesn't automatically mean lesser quality coffee).  

So, as I type this, I am wondering what step to take next.  I like the Coffee Deluxe, but it lacks a 3 way solenoid and adjustable over pressure valve.  The 3 way and OPV become important when you want to brew more coffee consecutively and want to take your coffee from beginner to intermediate/advanced, respectively.  The 3 way allows you to empty the portafilter faster and without waiting for the pressure to subside.  It also results in a drier coffee puck (the used grounds) that you can easily remove from the portafilter.  Both of these advantages allow you to brew a second (or third, fourth, fifth?) shot faster without waiting.  

The adjustable OPV allows you to tweak the machine to a lower brewing pressure.  I have not measured my Coffee Deluxe, but from what I read, the factory set pressure is bit too high for espresso enthusiasts and hence the tweak that can lower that pressure to the accepted standard: 9 bars.  

As additional points to consider, I have read a great deal about temperature consistency and how the inherent design of the machine influences that stability.  Boiler placement, boiler materials, heating element locations, boiler size....all have a great deal of influence on the temperature of the water and the ability of the boiler to recover once cold water replaces the heated water that just went into your coffee cup (or milk as steam).  

This results in classifications of machines by their inherent design.  SBDU: single boiler dual use is a prime example and very popular.  They have one boiler to make the hot water and can also make steam.  These machines (Gaggia Coffee deluxe is one, so it Rancilio Sylvia and many others).  This design is the only one I have any experience with (ok...I did have a steam "espresso" maker in college, yuuk), so I can't comment on other designs.  Double boilers, heat exchangers, combinations of those...they all exist and have many fans on this forum.  They are more expensive though and that is an impediment to someone just getting started.

This leads me to mention temp surfing and Proportional, Integral, Derivative devices (PID).  The more you learn and understand about coffee you find out that temperature is really important for getting a consistently good result.  Some enthusiasts have measured the temperature of their machines at various points in the coffee making cycle.  This lead to the observation that temperature swings up and down with the cycles.  Such swings are not optimal for consistency.  In order to address this, two solutions have evolved.  I'll call one the manual and the other the automatic temperature surfing solutions.

The manual surfing technique is to simply establish a routine whereby you keep time of the various steps in your coffee brewing procedure.  For example:  turn machine on and let it warm up for 20 minutes.  Run pump to drive out old water for five seconds.    Wait for machine to cycle back to "ready".  Briefly turn on steam switch for four seconds.  Wait 20 seconds and immediately brew shot.  The shortcoming of the manual method is that it's all subjective.  You are guessing at temperatures.  Guessing at the cycles.  Educated guesses (from reading these forums and reviewing actual data from other contributors), but guesses nonetheless.  

All of this is to achieve an optimal brewing temperature for your precious beans.  Sounds complicated?  It's not really, but having a thermometer would really help.  Enter the electronic thermometer attached to the boiler and having an electronic display on the outside of the coffee machine.  This can be done cheaply for under $20.  Or so I've read.  I haven't actually done it. I might though and soon.  By having this relatively inexpensive modification, you can measure the temperature and understand the cycles thereby allowing you to more accurately manipulate the machine controls to achieve the desired temperature.  There are some good videos of this technique on youtube.  If I can, I will post a link later.

However, wouldn't all of this be easier if the machine simply controlled the temperature on its own?  Yes....yes it would.  The PID is an electronic contraption that overrides the factory thermostat on your coffee machine and makes the machine cycle "heat on" or "heat off" much more frequently to allow for the optimal temperature to be achieved consistently for long periods of time.  Therefore, when you are ready to brew....the machine is ready too.  No timing, no waiting, no fuss, no muss.  But expensive.  Unless you are a DIY type person, the kits can cost upwards of $200.  So, I'm not planning on a PID any time soon.  Though it appears to be useful.  I do wonder about the effect on the overall longevity of the machine though.  With all of the additional cycling on and off, does that take a toll on the boiler and other internal parts?  I don't know.  

All of this is to say that if you just entering the home coffee/barista marketplace, a good start would be as SBDU machine, which you can use to hone your skills.  If you were learning to drive, you would not go out and buy a Ferrari.  You would start on a Chevy, Ford, Honda or the like.  Then you would move up with your ability, your budget and your preferences.  Same for a coffee maker.  

As for me, my goal is to have a decent coffee maker at the office (I like the Gran Gaggia, but it has shortcomings).  Therefore, I am taking the Coffee Deluxe there.  What to replace it at home?  I decided to get the Gaggia Classic.  There are many great reviews of the Classic here and elsewhere.  I love that it is supported on this and other forums and that parts are easy to find.  I will enjoy the 3 way solenoid and probably tweak the OPV.  What I do with temperature is not yet decided.  I am sure I could DIY the PID, but I don't think I want to spend the $$.  If someone can show me how to DIY for less $$, I would be most appreciative.  The pre-made kits are over $200 though.  Ouch.  But, I might try the thermometer on the boiler modification.  I need to do more research on where to buy the parts and how to do the modification though (help appreciated).  

Lastly, the final and most important thing to know about making your first espresso maker choice is actually quite simple.  GET A REALLY GOOD GRINDER first.  Buy a good one and cry only once.  It's a fact that cannot be debated.  Go to the grinder section of this forum to help you figure it out.  You will likely need $300 minimum.  

Have a great holiday season.  Peace out...

AR  

p.s. Thanks to all the forum pros who have contributed so much information for the benefit of us newbies.  It is greatly appreciated.
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tdifraia
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 78
Location: Boston
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM67
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Bunn
Posted Tue Dec 18, 2012, 9:15am
Subject: Re: Getting my learners permit...
 

artmanr Said:

I can't tell you what machine to buy, however I will tell you about my Gaggia experience.  It has been very good overall.  I considered different machines in the $400 and down category.  Luckily, I found this forum and steered away from the department store machines that are only espresso machines in name.  I purchased a Gaggia Coffee Deluxe as that fit my budget at the time.  

What do I like about the Gaggia?  I like the heft and quality of the portafilter and brew group.  I like that it is easily torn down for cleaning and maintenance.  I like that there are instructions all over the internet and especially the yahoo user group that explain in detail how to use and maintain the machine.  I like that it heats up FAST and recovers fast too.

I don't steam much, so it's not really important, but I find it more than adequate for the occasional milk drink.  I usually steam 6 ounces of milk in a stainless steel 20 oz frothing pitcher.  But, that is probably once a week or less on average.  

So, making good espresso at home for less money was my initial goal.  Now, I find that the quality of my coffee is better than I can get at just about any cafe around and especially the chain stores.  In that respect, I've achieved my goal: better coffee, made at home, for less money than I pay at shops.  I've probably saved $2000 or more by having coffee at home in the morning over the 4 years of owning the Gaggia.

Then the bug bites...curiosity...ambition...nay obsession?  Whatever, you want to do more and better.  

Then you start looking at your other options.  Which are many and  mind boggling.  I think the forum contributors here really help by asking you to focus on what type of drinks you make, how many you make, how often....etc.  Obviously, if you entertain a lot and want to share your craft with your friends, then you need something more suited to mass production than the entry level machines (which are geared towards the lower production quantities - one or two at a sitting - but that doesn't automatically mean lesser quality coffee).  

So, as I type this, I am wondering what step to take next.  I like the Coffee Deluxe, but it lacks a 3 way solenoid and adjustable over pressure valve.  The 3 way and OPV become important when you want to brew more coffee consecutively and want to take your coffee from beginner to intermediate/advanced, respectively.  The 3 way allows you to empty the portafilter faster and without waiting for the pressure to subside.  It also results in a drier coffee puck (the used grounds) that you can easily remove from the portafilter.  Both of these advantages allow you to brew a second (or third, fourth, fifth?) shot faster without waiting.  

The adjustable OPV allows you to tweak the machine to a lower brewing pressure.  I have not measured my Coffee Deluxe, but from what I read, the factory set pressure is bit too high for espresso enthusiasts and hence the tweak that can lower that pressure to the accepted standard: 9 bars.  

As additional points to consider, I have read a great deal about temperature consistency and how the inherent design of the machine influences that stability.  Boiler placement, boiler materials, heating element locations, boiler size....all have a great deal of influence on the temperature of the water and the ability of the boiler to recover once cold water replaces the heated water that just went into your coffee cup (or milk as steam).  

This results in classifications of machines by their inherent design.  SBDU: single boiler dual use is a prime example and very popular.  They have one boiler to make the hot water and can also make steam.  These machines (Gaggia Coffee deluxe is one, so it Rancilio Sylvia and many others).  This design is the only one I have any experience with (ok...I did have a steam "espresso" maker in college, yuuk), so I can't comment on other designs.  Double boilers, heat exchangers, combinations of those...they all exist and have many fans on this forum.  They are more expensive though and that is an impediment to someone just getting started.

This leads me to mention temp surfing and Proportional, Integral, Derivative devices (PID).  The more you learn and understand about coffee you find out that temperature is really important for getting a consistently good result.  Some enthusiasts have measured the temperature of their machines at various points in the coffee making cycle.  This lead to the observation that temperature swings up and down with the cycles.  Such swings are not optimal for consistency.  In order to address this, two solutions have evolved.  I'll call one the manual and the other the automatic temperature surfing solutions.

The manual surfing technique is to simply establish a routine whereby you keep time of the various steps in your coffee brewing procedure.  For example:  turn machine on and let it warm up for 20 minutes.  Run pump to drive out old water for five seconds.    Wait for machine to cycle back to "ready".  Briefly turn on steam switch for four seconds.  Wait 20 seconds and immediately brew shot.  The shortcoming of the manual method is that it's all subjective.  You are guessing at temperatures.  Guessing at the cycles.  Educated guesses (from reading these forums and reviewing actual data from other contributors), but guesses nonetheless.  

All of this is to achieve an optimal brewing temperature for your precious beans.  Sounds complicated?  It's not really, but having a thermometer would really help.  Enter the electronic thermometer attached to the boiler and having an electronic display on the outside of the coffee machine.  This can be done cheaply for under $20.  Or so I've read.  I haven't actually done it. I might though and soon.  By having this relatively inexpensive modification, you can measure the temperature and understand the cycles thereby allowing you to more accurately manipulate the machine controls to achieve the desired temperature.  There are some good videos of this technique on youtube.  If I can, I will post a link later.

However, wouldn't all of this be easier if the machine simply controlled the temperature on its own?  Yes....yes it would.  The PID is an electronic contraption that overrides the factory thermostat on your coffee machine and makes the machine cycle "heat on" or "heat off" much more frequently to allow for the optimal temperature to be achieved consistently for long periods of time.  Therefore, when you are ready to brew....the machine is ready too.  No timing, no waiting, no fuss, no muss.  But expensive.  Unless you are a DIY type person, the kits can cost upwards of $200.  So, I'm not planning on a PID any time soon.  Though it appears to be useful.  I do wonder about the effect on the overall longevity of the machine though.  With all of the additional cycling on and off, does that take a toll on the boiler and other internal parts?  I don't know.  

All of this is to say that if you just entering the home coffee/barista marketplace, a good start would be as SBDU machine, which you can use to hone your skills.  If you were learning to drive, you would not go out and buy a Ferrari.  You would start on a Chevy, Ford, Honda or the like.  Then you would move up with your ability, your budget and your preferences.  Same for a coffee maker.  

As for me, my goal is to have a decent coffee maker at the office (I like the Gran Gaggia, but it has shortcomings).  Therefore, I am taking the Coffee Deluxe there.  What to replace it at home?  I decided to get the Gaggia Classic.  There are many great reviews of the Classic here and elsewhere.  I love that it is supported on this and other forums and that parts are easy to find.  I will enjoy the 3 way solenoid and probably tweak the OPV.  What I do with temperature is not yet decided.  I am sure I could DIY the PID, but I don't think I want to spend the $$.  If someone can show me how to DIY for less $$, I would be most appreciative.  The pre-made kits are over $200 though.  Ouch.  But, I might try the thermometer on the boiler modification.  I need to do more research on where to buy the parts and how to do the modification though (help appreciated).  

Lastly, the final and most important thing to know about making your first espresso maker choice is actually quite simple.  GET A REALLY GOOD GRINDER first.  Buy a good one and cry only once.  It's a fact that cannot be debated.  Go to the grinder section of this forum to help you figure it out.  You will likely need $300 minimum.  

Have a great holiday season.  Peace out...

AR  

p.s. Thanks to all the forum pros who have contributed so much information for the benefit of us newbies.  It is greatly appreciated.

Posted December 18, 2012 link

Now that is a GREAT post. I would get that copy written if I was you. Not only was it extremely informational, but very easy to understand. Personally I would like to THANK YOU, because it cleared up about a 1/2 dozen items that were fuzzy to me. So grazia mi amica.

I may go ahead and purchase the Lelit - PL041TQE Espresso Machine & a good hand grinder, either a Porlex Mini w/ ceramic burrs, or the Kyocera cm-45-cf. Comparing the Lelit to the Gaggia Classic, it has a Brass Boiler (better heat xfer,& temp. stability), better steam wand (I prefer milk drinks), and a pre-installed PID  unit to help me with temp accuracy, which I figure will save me $$ over time by preventing countless sink shots while Im learning.
It costs $200 more than Gaggia Classic, but by purchasing the hand grinder over an electric I can even things out a bit.

The Crossland CC1 is also a machine that appeals to me, as it has all the features the Lelit has, plus a thermoblock for steaming, but I believe it has a SS Boiler, unlike the brass boiler in the Lelit.
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Coffeenoobie
Senior Member
Coffeenoobie
Joined: 11 Dec 2011
Posts: 2,972
Location: PNW
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: N S Oscar
Grinder: K30 & Vario W
Posted Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:07am
Subject: Re: which machine to buy
 

Just remember lots of milk drinks is where single boilers are so slow that most people want to upgrade right away.  CC1 Should handle multi milk drinks a bit better.

 
Coffeenoobie

Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder.

My coffee treasure map...
Click Here (maps.google.com)

Oscar trick out: http://s156.photobucket.com/user/GandBteam/story/14231
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artmanr
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Chicago
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Coffee Deluxe, Gran...
Grinder: Baratza Virtuoso, Baratza...
Posted Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:54am
Subject: Re: which machine to buy
 

Coffeenoobie Said:

Just remember lots of milk drinks is where single boilers are so slow that most people want to upgrade right away.  CC1 Should handle multi milk drinks a bit better.

Posted December 18, 2012 link

I would second that.  If milk drinks are your first choice, then consider the DB or HX machines instead of the SBDU for the mere convenience of instant steam on demand.  

And for what it's worth...my prior post is Copyright 2012 All Rights Reserved; which is probably a violation of the current forum rules (did not check) and if it is....is retracted to the extent necessary to comply with said rules.  Art
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