bobpies Senior Member Joined: 8 Jan 2013 Posts: 8 Location: N.Ireland Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Tue Jan 8, 2013, 8:05am Subject: £1500 Rocket Espresso vs my £150 Delonghi - why is the rocket loosing?
i have just come across a terrible truth that im having trouble dealing with at the minute.
i swapped out my delonghi for a rocket giotto about 2 years ago now. i have been enjoying it since but at the same time i always enjoyed my delonghi too even if it was relatively cheap.
Now, the one thing i remember from my delonghi was the amount of crema it produced - always LOADS, even from shop bought beans.
and that was the first thing i noticed about the rocket - it didn't produce the same amount of crema unless i was using freshly roasted beans, and even then it would need to be a double shot to produce the same results.
i also lost my love of espresso's since i got the rocket - always tasted a little too bitter, no matter what i tried - finer grind - more grinds - less tamp more tamp etc. etc. - only if i purchased maybe like an earthy old brown java could i bring myself to make an espresso, whereas with the delonghi i always had espresso no matter what the bean and it was always perfectly balanced and smooth. further to this, - since i got the rocket my girlfriend will not even take a cup of coffee from it, opting instead for a nespresso.
so.. the reason why im here. i just took my delonghi out of the cupboard and blew the dust off of it. - hooked it all up and decided to do a taste test to settle this in my mind.
using the Eureka Mignon grinder i prepared one shot for the delonghi and one for the rocket - dialing them both in appropriately - the first thing i noticed was the Delonghi held significantly less grinds that the double basket rocket.
the test below was using shop bought beans as i recently ran out of fresh ones. - i will only assume fresh ones that the results would be the same.
standard basket Delonghi (single shot) vs double basket Rocket Giotto (double shot)
Rocket Giotto produced very little crema, came out of the group head already looking a little watery even though the shot produced was in the right time frame of about 27 sec. for the correct amount of liquid produced. Tasted what i had come to expect, a little bitter. not blown away. maybe a 6/10
Delonghi - LOADS of crema ??? what is going on. it took me 2 goes to get the grinder dialed in the first shot i poured was extremely slow - i thought there is no way this could be drinkable. took about 45 seconds to produce the correct volume of liquid - i thought i would give it a taste anyway and it tasted great.. smooth, maybe slightly strong, but still well balanced. the 2nd shot 27 sec correct volume of liquid - again lots of crema, perfectly smooth and well balanced. i would give both shots a 9/10
so i retried - this time opting for the single basket rocket, to see if it was maybe down to the dosing. after a couple attempts i produced what should have been a comparable shot from the rocket. - but again, slightly bitter, little crema. not particularly enjoyable. - delonghi shot beat it again.
SO - now im in a terrible position where i have a £150 coffee machine that is producing better results and more enjoyable coffee than my £1,500 coffee machine. It bothered me so much i had to sign up to this forum to vent about it and see if anyone else has ever experienced something like this or can suggest what im doing wrong.
its all a little distressing, and once my fresh beans arrive and i do another A/B that the rocket might just end up in the 'buy & sell' forums.
scanfield Senior Member Joined: 21 Nov 2011 Posts: 168 Location: Texas Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: La Nuovo Era Cuadra Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Tue Jan 8, 2013, 8:51am Subject: Re: £1500 Rocket Espresso vs my £150 Delonghi - why is the rocket loosing?
I don't know about the differences in crema, but the bitterness could be due to your water being too hot (assuming you really are getting 2 oz in 27 seconds). Lower your temperature until you get a sour shot, then increase temperature a degree or two at a time and see if you can't find a zone that works well for the beans you are using.
Do you know how many grams of coffee you are using in the double basket? When I first started, I was always trying to use 14g because I thought that was the standard. Since then, I've found that I'm much happier with the results when using 16g or so in my La Nuova Era Cuadra.
Posted Tue Jan 8, 2013, 9:25am Subject: Re: £1500 Rocket Espresso vs my £150 Delonghi - why is the rocket loosing?
I think a lot of the Delonghi models ship with a pressurized portafilters. If yours is pressurized, this would account for what you are perceiving as crema when pulling a shot on the Delonghi. Using fresh beans each and every time is mandatory when pulling eapresso shots. I'm not sure what your step-by-step is to pull a shot on the Rocket. When you dial in the grind, do you first choke the machine and back off incrementally? Do you weigh and dose correctly perhaps using a dissecting needle to make sure the grinds are correctly distributed in the portafilter basket? Do you bleed off any possible false pressure before pulling the shot? Do you stabilize the Rocket by pulling a blank shot before you pull a real shot?
My first few days of Rocket ownership produced the same sort of results you are describing and I decided I was not too impressed. My grinder (Mazzer SJ) was capable, the beans were fresh, the machine was highly rated; so I knew the problem was the operator. I was producing beautiful tasty shots on my Cremina but so-so shots on the Rocket. My problem was ultimately the grind. I simply was not grinding fine enough. There's a narrow band for my Rocket between choking the machine and producing a good shot; more so than any other of my espresso machines. When I dial in a grind on the Rocket and I choke the machine and then back off, I know I have to back off in very small increments sometimes choking the machine for more than one shot. My SJ is stepless and sensitive so turning the dial almost imperceptably produces the correct grind and turning just a bit more gave me watery results. After a few weeks, I learned to visually judge the grind for the Rocket and now very rarely obtain poor results.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,634 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:04am Subject: Re: £1500 Rocket Espresso vs my £150 Delonghi - why is the rocket loosing?
PPF was my first thought too. Fake cremma even with stale store bought coffee. The Rocket requires a good grinder and proper techneque, when properly setup and used, it will blow away the Delonghi in quality and consistency. YMMV
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
CMIN Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2012 Posts: 500 Location: South FL Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:07am Subject: Re: £1500 Rocket Espresso vs my £150 Delonghi - why is the rocket loosing?
I have a Delonhi Bar32 around, no comparison to my CC1, CC1 makes real espresso. Delonghi's make "fake" espresso, for one they don't really get to right temps, but the Portafilters are pressurized, hence why you can use stale store bought beans or preground and still get what looks like "Crema", not really crema, it's fake crema b/c it's being forced through a tiny pinhole (kinda like running a water hose and then closing it up so you have a tiny hard hitting stream).
You may not have the grind and dose correct for the Rocket. With the Pressurized PFs on cheaper machines those help mitigate not grinding correctly, or not having a capable grinder period. Little tricky at first but I can say the coffee from my CC1 is worlds better then the Deloghni, especially for the real "crema". If your using crap beans in the Rocket, or any machine without a pressurized portafilter results will be mehhh, fresh roasted beans = rich body and real crema.
bobpies Senior Member Joined: 8 Jan 2013 Posts: 8 Location: N.Ireland Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:34am Subject: Re: £1500 Rocket Espresso vs my £150 Delonghi - why is the rocket loosing?
Cammie Said:
I think a lot of the Delonghi models ship with a pressurized portafilters. If yours is pressurized, this would account for what you are perceiving as crema when pulling a shot on the Delonghi. Using fresh beans each and every time is mandatory when pulling eapresso shots. I'm not sure what your step-by-step is to pull a shot on the Rocket. When you dial in the grind, do you first choke the machine and back off incrementally? Do you weigh and dose correctly perhaps using a dissecting needle to make sure the grinds are correctly distributed in the portafilter basket? Do you bleed off any possible false pressure before pulling the shot? Do you stabilize the Rocket by pulling a blank shot before you pull a real shot?
My first few days of Rocket ownership produced the same sort of results you are describing and I decided I was not too impressed. My grinder (Mazzer SJ) was capable, the beans were fresh, the machine was highly rated; so I knew the problem was the operator. I was producing beautiful tasty shots on my Cremina but so-so shots on the Rocket. My problem was ultimately the grind. I simply was not grinding fine enough. There's a narrow band for my Rocket between choking the machine and producing a good shot; more so than any other of my espresso machines. When I dial in a grind on the Rocket and I choke the machine and then back off, I know I have to back off in very small increments sometimes choking the machine for more than one shot. My SJ is stepless and sensitive so turning the dial almost imperceptably produces the correct grind and turning just a bit more gave me watery results. After a few weeks, I learned to visually judge the grind for the Rocket and now very rarely obtain poor results.
i think you are right, my delonghi does use a pressurised portafilter which would explain it - i never actually noticed that for some reason - that would explain all those times i choked the machine - then when loosening the group head it splattered myself and the entire kitchen in coffee.
still doesn't explain why the shots from it are so much more balanced in terms of flavour though - or does it?
i kind of just 'know' when i have dialed in correctly now. but before i would have gone back to choking point and then backed off until i was producing a double shot in about 27 sec with about 16g of coffee. - but i dont really do this anymore and just judge it by the flow rate and when it starts (5 secs or so).
could it be i just prefer the taste from a pressurised portafilter ?
have fresh beans arriving tomorrow must try A/B again to see
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,313 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:40am Subject: Re: £1500 Rocket Espresso vs my £150 Delonghi - why is the rocket loosing?
It is possible everyone's taste is different. If I were you, I would spend the few weeks really working on your technique and see if you can't get good espresso from your Rocket. And if at the end of a few weeks you are back here then sell your rocket and keep the Delonghi. You can sell it to me... Just kidding I know you are over seas....
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
bobpies Senior Member Joined: 8 Jan 2013 Posts: 8 Location: N.Ireland Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Wed Jan 9, 2013, 6:40am Subject: Re: £1500 Rocket Espresso vs my £150 Delonghi - why is the rocket loosing?
got my fresh beans today, so will do a taste test in a few mins.
i think the way it currently sits is that with stale shop beans, the pressurised portafilter makes a nicer cup of coffee for whatever reason than the rocket.
im hoping the fresh beans is where the rocket will shine.
got me thinking though, is it possible to fit a PPF to a rocket giotto? for when i am resigned to shop beans, or actually for making my girlfriend a cup of coffee - as she doesn't like anything that comes out of the rocket.
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