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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > ECM / Rocket...  
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SStones
Senior Member
SStones
Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 477
Location: Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Giga 5, ECM Giotto, Rocket...
Grinder: Anfim Milano-Best
Vac Pot: No  :(
Drip: Some $30 thing from Walmart
Roaster: I buy pre-roasted.
Posted Fri Jan 18, 2013, 5:13pm
Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group
 

Giovanni312 Said:

Then the heating element doesn't kick back on, pressure falls to zero, pull lever, no pump......

Any ideas? Could it be a pump? Pstat? Circuit board? I would like to take a stab at repairing it before taking it to a local shop.

Posted January 17, 2013 link

You probably know this, but I will start with the simple operatiing program of the power/logic board component of ECM era Giottos.
There are inputs for both the reservoir and boiler. They are connected to wires, the boiler probe hangs in the top of the boiler and the reservoir either has metal forks hanging in the water with the back right corner connected to the wire or on newer, bottom-valve reservoirs without the hanginf tubes, there is a brass valve-post in the cup beneath the reservoir and a bolt in the side connected to the reservoir sensor lead.

When the water in the reservoir (Or cup) is deep enough to short the sensor to body-ground, the logic board knows there's water in reservoir and checks the boiler probe.
If boiler probe is dry, the logic board triggers the power board to leave element off while turning on the fill solenoid and the pump...  Guess what results from "Fill" and "Pump"...  Yes, the boiler is filling with water.
If Boiler probe is shorted to ground, then the boiler is 2/3 full and the Giotto is okay to turn the heating element on...  Pump and Fill valve are off, element is on.


Older Giottos will simply turn on the element. Then so long as the current can travel through the high-limit and Pressostat, then it heats until the pressure gets high enough.  Some badly thought out Giottos, actually have a "Pressure Switch" input on the logic board and control the element with a relay on the powerboard, effectively making the expensive logic/powerboard combination the sacrificial part of the machine.  Anybody that knows their ass from their armpit will correct this so that the pressostat's contacts are deteriorating rather than the powerboard's... Assuming that the machine is new enough to have arrived with the little Sirai pressostat, it can be jumpered across all contacts to double its life and perhaps help them live to 15 years.  But now, I'm off topic...

I hope it is something else, but it sounds to me like once the machine gets hot, the transformer in your circuit board overheats and stops sensing your reservoir water level, and/or just stops operating all together.  Try grounding your reservoir sensor and see if the machine operates normally.  "No Pump, No Element" means the brain is either thinking "No Water", or is too hot to think at all.

I will shut up, now.  I think I'm wandering off topic, again, and I need to eat.   Check what's wrong with your machine. Fix it.
It's a simple Giotto, not some superautomatica.  If the powerboard has power, check the inputs and outputs.  I wish you luck, post more results as you discover more.  If you trigger more thoughts, I'm sure I will bore you to death, again.
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Giovanni312
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Oak Park, Il
Expertise: Just starting

Grinder: Mazzer mini
Posted Sat Jan 19, 2013, 8:43am
Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group
 

Well, armed with your knowledge, I turned the machine on to see if it was still failing. I left it on for the usual 20 min to see if everything reached temp, the gauge read .9 bar, I pulled the lever, and everything worked....... It seems to me that something is on its way out; however, without being able to reproduce the symptoms I will wait until it happens again.

BTW: The machine is an older model, the steam/water wands only swing left/right. The pstat was replaced before I purchased it from a fellow CG'er with a jager(sp?).  

I will keep you posted if it happens again. Does anyone know where to find electrical schematics for the ecm Giotto premium?
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SStones
Senior Member
SStones
Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 477
Location: Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Giga 5, ECM Giotto, Rocket...
Grinder: Anfim Milano-Best
Vac Pot: No  :(
Drip: Some $30 thing from Walmart
Roaster: I buy pre-roasted.
Posted Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:04am
Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group
 

Giovanni312 Said:

I left it on for the usual 20 min to see if everything reached temp, the gauge read .9 bar, I pulled the lever, and everything worked....... It seems to me that something is on its way out; however, without being able to reproduce the symptoms I will wait until it happens again.

Posted January 19, 2013 link

Sounds more and more convincing that it is the transformer in the powerboard overheating.  It won't happen all the time.  I don't know to what extent it will help but I do know some people put fibreglass insulation between the powerboard (Black box) and the boiler and believe this is helping it.  It certainly can't hurt.

Does anyone know where to find electrical schematics for the ecm Giotto premium?

The powerboard housings have a little sticker with a pretty good description of their connections.
If you ask because you are considering replacing your board with a new one, it's certainly do-able.  Let this thread know and I/we will point out the changes to notice.
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Giovanni312
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Oak Park, Il
Expertise: Just starting

Grinder: Mazzer mini
Posted Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:07am
Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group
 

SStones: Thank you for all the info. I am going to take the machine apart later today and install some insulation per your post. Is there any way to see (visually) if the board is suffering from over heating?

Also, if I were to replace the board (i would hate to have the Giotto fail when company is over), do you have a recommendation of where to obtain a replacement? I am going to call Chris Coffee this coming Monday to see if they carry them.

Thanks and have a wonderful weekend.
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SStones
Senior Member
SStones
Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 477
Location: Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Giga 5, ECM Giotto, Rocket...
Grinder: Anfim Milano-Best
Vac Pot: No  :(
Drip: Some $30 thing from Walmart
Roaster: I buy pre-roasted.
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 5:30am
Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group
 

There's more than one way for the powerboard to fail.  Most commonly, the relay powering the element starts sticking either open or closed.  When this happens thumping the powerboard with the handle of your screwdriver can start it working again. If it usually works for a while until it gets warm, then it certainly won't be bad enough to smell like an obviously burnt out electronic board. There really won't be an obvious indicator proving it is imperfect.
Before buying the replacement which could run you about $290 (Our local place, here in Canada), I suggest studying the symptoms and seeing if you can find any sort of cause/effect pattern.  Since you're thinking of taking the walls off of the machine and stuffing some insulation in front of the powerboard, pull the powerboard out and take a picture of it (The sticker side) to post here so I/we can get an idea of the era of your machine.  Don't take all the wires off of the powerboard, yet, unless you mark them for re-assembly.
Sorry for the late response.  I'll bet this woulda been better on the weekend.
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Giovanni312
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Oak Park, Il
Expertise: Just starting

Grinder: Mazzer mini
Posted Thu Jan 31, 2013, 7:54pm
Subject: Re: ECM / Rocket Giotto User Group
 

SStones: I hope it is something else, but it sounds to me like once the machine gets hot, the transformer in your circuit board overheats and stops sensing your reservoir water level, and/or just stops operating all together.  Try grounding your reservoir sensor and see if the machine operates normally.  "No Pump, No Element" means the brain is either thinking "No Water", or is too hot to think at all.

The machine was working without issue until last night, it reachd temp but then dropped pressure and would kick back on.

This afternoon, I turned the machine on, the light turns; however nothing else...I took the panels off the ECM (photos to come). I grounded the line running to the reservoir.....the heating element kicked on and everything is working. Any thoughts?
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