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Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Trying to Decide...  
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 4:39pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

BubbaDude Said:

I've used the BDB every day for a year and haven't experienced any issues with pressure drops or poor steaming capacity. The one story I saw about alleged low pressure actually reflected a user who hadn't cleaned his grinder in a long time. I roast my own beans, so I'm very attentive to pressure issues and keeping my grinder in tip-top shape.

And no, I haven't used any other dual boiler machines, nor have I been tempted.

Posted January 21, 2013 link

Hmmm... THis was the post:I dont see anything about grinder cleaning.

There has been a lot going around amongst the more experienced BDB users about pressure loss over time, to where some folks could hardly get any brew pressure at all.  Word from the aussie forums slowly trickled down that it might have been due to a problem with the 3-way solenoid valve.  Sooo... I did a partial disassembly of my BDB today and found the 3-way valve and removed it for inspection.  Here is my report:

-Unlike a lot of commercial/italian machines, the BDB's 3-way valve is on a machined stainless base.
-which in turn, sits on a machined aluminum mating surface
-there are a couple of o-rings sitting in machined recesses in the stainless solenoid's base.  mine had a tiny encrustation of limescale.  it could easily have gone on another year.  BUT (and this is a BIG but), I have used almost exclusively RO water, so the mineral content is very low-to-near-zero, while clearly being enough for the sensors to get proper readings.  i am going to have to assume that if you do not use very low mineral content water, those little suckers can crust-up, but good.
-there has been talk that Breville is replacing the o-rings with a flat gasket.  i can see how that might work since the two mating surfaces are machined.  in fact, it's probably better that way since aluminum and stainless steel DO react with each other, (moreso in a salt environment, but still).  There was some slight reactivity that showed itself in some black deposits on the aluminum face.
-on reassembly, i put a _light_ coat of dimethyl silicone in the o-ring lands and on the faces of the mating surfaces.

based on that examination, i'm going to keep using my BDB exactly as i have been and not change a thing.  ok, i changed one thing.  i dialed back the OPV a half-turn.  i do worry that if the OPV ever needs replacing, how will we get a new one?

And your comment was as follows. Still no mention about a dirty grinder

Thanks for doing this, Peter, it's enlightening. I use RO water too, so I won't do a tear down yet. I wouldn't worry about the OPV as there are nice brass ones for sale by various parts dealers that will certainly work. An OPV is an OPV, more or less.
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 522
Location: High in the Rockies
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 4:45pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

cuznvin Said:

Hmmm... THis was the post:I dont see anything about grinder cleaning.

There has been a lot going around amongst the more experienced BDB users about pressure loss over time, to where some folks could hardly get any brew pressure at all.  Word from the aussie forums slowly trickled down that it might have been due to a problem with the 3-way solenoid valve.  Sooo... I did a partial disassembly of my BDB today and found the 3-way valve and removed it for inspection.  Here is my report...[text omitted]

based on that examination, i'm going to keep using my BDB exactly as i have been and not change a thing.  ok, i changed one thing.  i dialed back the OPV a half-turn.  i do worry that if the OPV ever needs replacing, how will we get a new one?

Posted January 21, 2013 link

Peter's post doesn't say that he had a pressure drop problem. He read a post by Nick Yang to the effect that there was something screwy about the o-ring and decided to investigate. Peter didn't find a problem. I believe Nick's problem is grinder-related.  Nick is the guy who was telling people to try to clean their boilers by filling them with toxic chemicals that can't be effectively removed once introduced, so I don't consider him a credible source.

Once again, I've been using my BDB for a year and haven't had any issues.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 4:54pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Ill guess Ill keep watching to see how the BDB is standing up before I purchase any machine. Trust me.. I dont want to spend $2500 if I dont have to
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germantownrob
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germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,153
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 5:36pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

cuznvin Said:

Have you used any other Dual Boiler machines to compare the shots and steaming capability to your BDB ? The specs all look great on the BDB except for the small steam boiler . I see comments about users experiencing drops in pressure after using the machine for awhile and someone discovered an issue with a gasket that Breville is supposedly changing to a different type. I am not really wanting a machine that needs to be taken apart because I am not handy enough to do that.

Posted January 21, 2013 link

Be warned then that the Duetto ships with one of the pressure gauge lines needing to be hooked up before using, this requires you to be somewhat handy to even use the machine and to have a Philips head screwdriver, 10 mm wrench, and a 12mm wrench do do the job.

Even a $10,000 machine is going to need to be wrenched on at some point. There has been 2 things I have had to do to the Duetto 3 since it arrived 1 week ago other then the above mentioned task. I had to remove the steam knob to put locktite on a fitting that had loosened, Chris coffee is aware of this and had been checking this themselves while trying to get Itally to correct the problem, Itally got more liberal with their thread sealant but apparently they got stingy again and Chris' will be checking all the knobs once again and sending emails to Itally. The fix required an awl, needle noise pliers, flat head screwdriver,  some thread lock, and twenty four hours for the sealant to cure. I had the machine up and functional in twenty minutes from discovery of problem to a temporary fix to pull a shot, this consisted of removing the hot water knob and installing it where the steam knob was while the steam knob sat on the counter top to cure. My second problem was a loose brew pressure gauge, tricky because the nut to tighten is in a spot to tight for any of my wrenches but fingers and needle nose pliers did a decent job just wish I had let the machine cool before pushing on with the fix.

I am sure there is a machine that can be had that will go maintenance free for years but my Oscar wasn't one of them and my Duetto after a week is not one of them. Silvia and Gaggia Classics seem to give people years of trouble free service, heck my Honda Element had no service outside of routine for 200,000 miles but a friend with a super car didn't get to drive it more then a hundred miles the first year while some things got worked out.
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 5:54pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

germantownrob Said:

Be warned then that the Duetto ships with one of the pressure gauge lines needing to be hooked up before using, this requires you to be somewhat handy to even use the machine and to have a Philips head screwdriver, 10 mm wrench, and a 12mm wrench do do the job.

Even a $10,000 machine is going to need to be wrenched on at some point. There has been 2 things I have had to do to the Duetto 3 since it arrived 1 week ago other then the above mentioned task. I had to remove the steam knob to put locktite on a fitting that had loosened, Chris coffee is aware of this and had been checking this themselves while trying to get Itally to correct the problem, Itally got more liberal with their thread sealant but apparently they got stingy again and Chris' will be checking all the knobs once again and sending emails to Itally. The fix required an awl, needle noise pliers, flat head screwdriver,  some thread lock, and twenty four hours for the sealant to cure. I had the machine up and functional in twenty minutes from discovery of problem to a temporary fix to pull a shot, this consisted of removing the hot water knob and installing it where the steam knob was while the steam knob sat on the counter top to cure. My second problem was a loose brew pressure gauge, tricky because the nut to tighten is in a spot to tight for any of my wrenches but fingers and needle nose pliers did a decent job just wish I had let the machine cool before pushing on with the fix.

I am sure there is a machine that can be had that will go maintenance free for years but my Oscar wasn't one of them and my Duetto after a week is not one of them. Silvia and Gaggia Classics seem to give people years of trouble free service, heck my Honda Element had no service outside of routine for 200,000 miles but a friend with a super car didn't get to drive it more then a hundred miles the first year while some things got worked out.

Posted January 21, 2013 link

That isnt something I would want to deal with or have to deal with on a brand new machine.  I would return it as damaged. Where do they come off charging $2500 for something that they arent taking care in putting together in Italy.
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germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,153
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 9:18pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

cuznvin Said:

That isnt something I would want to deal with or have to deal with on a brand new machine.  I would return it as damaged. Where do they come off charging $2500 for something that they arent taking care in putting together in Italy.

Posted January 21, 2013 link

Go read through Gs3 threads, you will find issues with new users as well. Why does a super car cost $100k-? And still need to be worked on? If you want an appliance that works simply then buy one, if you want precision then buy from the craftsman in Itally, if you want craftsmanship and precision that works for a long time then buy German. I guess what you get for for $2500 is the parts to make a $2500 espresso machine, I think the Italians might say is if you wanted more then buy a machine that costs more, my kin would have told you to spend more to get less feel but trust last much longer.

I brought this up because I didn't think you wanted to deal with it and you thought money might solve it, it doesn't at $2500. A $500 or less machine has a better chance of going trouble free opration for 5 or more years then a $2000 on up machine. That cheaper made machine was built to fit the need of consumers  and therefore need to last. Prosumer machines only need to make the few people that buy them happy, not the commercial people, nor the money conscious consumer for the home world, just us asses that don't have enough money for commercial equipment or space so we fall into this prosumer world. I am not going to sugar coat it, if this is where you think you want to play then you pay.

There are commercial HX machines in the similar range of these prosumer DB that will last a life time  but if you want DB and some technology in the $1-3k world then expect to pay for expensive shipping and repair if you can't do them yourself. Why in the world would you think high end machines wouldn't need service?
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germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,153
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 10:19pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

BubbaDude Said:

The Breville DB is less expensive because it's an original design made for mass production and not an HX machine retrofitted with a second boiler and an off-the-shelf PID. The boilers are stainless steel instead of brass or copper, and they're appropriately sized for a home machine. In my experience - I've had one for a year - it is highly reliable, a good steamer, quick to warm up, and super convenient to use. The Breville has superior temperature control and stability, and better human factors (AKA "user interface") than the standard Italian machine has. It has PID control of the electronic brew group heater, something the retrofit machines don't feature, as well as an auto start timer, user programmable pre-infusion, a computer controlled cleaning cycle, and precise control of the actual brew temp without guesswork about temperature offsets.

Posted January 21, 2013 link

Honestly Breville should give some royalty for this statement. We at coffee geek have been waiting on long term performance, well one year bdays are being had, I personally want to see two years but I have to admit I am darn impressed so far.
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 522
Location: High in the Rockies
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:19pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

germantownrob Said:

Honestly Breville should give some royalty for this statement. We at coffee geek have been waiting on long term performance, well one year bdays are being had, I personally want to see two years but I have to admit I am darn impressed so far.

Posted January 21, 2013 link

I was intrigued by the BDB when I read Mark's Prince's First Look in May, 2011, but I waited until January 2012 to buy one on the theory that there would probably be some first production run bugs to hammer out. It turns out there was one: the OPVs in the first run machines were adjusted too high, around 13 bar max. I bought mine from the "warehouse" section of a large on-line retailer, where you normally find used and returned machines, but it seemed brand new. I got one with the OPV problem, but by then there was a YouTube about how to adjust it, which I did, and it's been smooth sailing from there. The ones they're shipping now have corrected that problem, of course. All in all, the machine has lived up to my (high) expectations, so I'm a happy customer.

If Breville wants to pay me for saying so, I'll gladly cash their checks but they haven't come forward with any offers so far.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 9:32am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

germantownrob Said:

Go read through Gs3 threads, you will find issues with new users as well. Why does a super car cost $100k-? And still need to be worked on? If you want an appliance that works simply then buy one, if you want precision then buy from the craftsman in Itally, if you want craftsmanship and precision that works for a long time then buy German. I guess what you get for for $2500 is the parts to make a $2500 espresso machine, I think the Italians might say is if you wanted more then buy a machine that costs more, my kin would have told you to spend more to get less feel but trust last much longer.

I brought this up because I didn't think you wanted to deal with it and you thought money might solve it, it doesn't at $2500. A $500 or less machine has a better chance of going trouble free opration for 5 or more years then a $2000 on up machine. That cheaper made machine was built to fit the need of consumers  and therefore need to last. Prosumer machines only need to make the few people that buy them happy, not the commercial people, nor the money conscious consumer for the home world, just us asses that don't have enough money for commercial equipment or space so we fall into this prosumer world. I am not going to sugar coat it, if this is where you think you want to play then you pay.

There are commercial HX machines in the similar range of these prosumer DB that will last a life time  but if you want DB and some technology in the $1-3k world then expect to pay for expensive shipping and repair if you can't do them yourself. Why in the world would you think high end machines wouldn't need service?

Posted January 21, 2013 link

Obviously I know machines will need service at some point. I am talking about BRAND NEW machines that need to be taken apart and fixed/adjusted from the get go. If you really think the parts for a machine cost $2500 then you are not clearly thinking.  DO you think they arent making profit?
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germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,153
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:44pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

cuznvin Said:

Obviously I know machines will need service at some point. I am talking about BRAND NEW machines that need to be taken apart and fixed/adjusted from the get go. If you really think the parts for a machine cost $2500 then you are not clearly thinking.  DO you think they arent making profit?

Posted January 22, 2013 link

That wasn't my point, of course profit is made. I paid around $2500, and I paid $950 for an Oscar 4years ago. The Oscar needed 4 repairs in its life, well 3 and the 4th will get it working again. For $2500 I got a prosumer machine and its parts are not all commercial grade, I feel I got a lot for the price but I do not think I got anywhere near the best or problem free machine. You won't see many post about the DT1 in a home having very many problems, you get what you pay for, less features, one boiler, built like a tank for commercial environments.

Chris' assures me that the knobs are back on their checklist of things to make sure of before shipping. I don't think anybody wants to deal with the issue but that doesn't mean it won't exist on a expensive machine, I just roll with the punches and fix it, others would ship it back, and some might raise a big stink. The nut that needs attaching upon setting up the Duetto for the first time is better then the alternative of it breaking in shipment.

Just a note on shipping. I knew my machine had arrived when I heard the thump of the UPS man pulling the machine off the truck and it landing on the ground, think of what they do when they know nobody can see them.
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