Winnisk Senior Member Joined: 4 Jan 2013 Posts: 9 Location: Moonstone Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Quick Mill Silvano Grinder: Vario
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 3:20pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
MerleApAmber Said:
Ok, I'll help make it simple: Buy a Harley Davidson or a Yamaha? Now, just think about all the considerations you follow down that path - same here :) </giggles a bit madly... *but then: goes back to drinking very acceptable espresso without a second thought*
I like the Harley/Yamaha analogy! And, in my mind, there is then no right or wrong answer. It just depends on what is important to you.
If we assume, for a minute, that each machine has identical functionality and reliability, that they make identical espresso and that each machine will be maintenance free for the next ten years, is cost then the only difference? For some I am sure the answer is yes. For me, however, there are is also user experience and aesthetic value that I need to factor in.
In terms of user experience, if frugality, functionality and reliability alone float my boat I will go BDB. If, in addition to functionality and reliability, I appreciate classic artisanship, and can afford it, I go Italian.
Given that making espresso is an at least once daily, almost ritualistic experience for me, the extra 25 cents a day it would cost me (assuming a $1,000 difference) to appreciate the classic artisanship over the next ten years is worth it. Part of the value, for me, is that connection to history, to Italy, to craftsmanship and beauty. The aesthetic quality makes the additional cost of an Italian machine worth it to me over the more utilitarian BDB. The Breville may get the same job done in the end, but, for me, the overall experience will not be the same. And that’s with building in the assumption that it lasts.
That’s me though. If I couldn’t afford the additional initial layout or if I did not care about the aesthetic, intangible qualities of more traditional Italian beauty, the BDB looks like a good choice if all you want to do is travel from A-B.
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 421 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 3:58pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
Jmanespresso Said:
Ive owned four high end espresso machines. Two HXs and Two Dual Boilers. Three of them were E61 machines, one was the La Spaziale Vivaldi II.
I do like the E61 design. As Chris Coffee will tell you in all their videos, it looks good, it makes great coffee, and its easy and cheap to service. It comes apart easy enough with a pair of wrenches and a screwdriver or hexhead, and you have access to each valve and the lever cam. Even with a Rotary pump it provides a smooth pressure ramp and natural pre-infusion, and I will tell you it is quite forgiving. Not that the Vivaldi II is tough to use, but when I switched to it from an E-61, and then back to E-61 when I sold it, I noticed how much more forgiving the E61 was of slight imperfections in your shot prep. Diligence is rewarded, but faults are not harshly punished.
Current machine is the much loved, uber popular Alex Duetto 2. The V3 brings some nice fit-finish aspects to the table that brings the Duetto up to Quickmill levels of refinement, but internally its been a beast since version 1. My opinion on it is that its the number 1 E61 Dual boiler Chris Coffee sells, and out of all the E61 Dual Boilers, it shares the top of the podium with one other, the Vibiemme double domo.(The differences between the DDV3 and the DuettoV3 are almost nothing,that the decision between them is really just whether you want to buy from Jim or Chris. Since Ive always bought from Chris, thats how my decision went.) They are the E61 DBs that have Rotary Pumps, Tank/Plumb option, tiny brew boilers and huge steam boilers, fully PID controlled, heating elements large enough that you never outrun them, and the ability to run beautifully on 110v/15amp, and the Duetto can crank over to 20amp if you want to push it to catering level capacity.
As to whether or not the E61 is a solid choice for a dual boiler design, I direct you here, for an indepth study of the temperature profile of the Alex Duetto.
And Im not knocking the Breville either. Im really impressed by that little guy, Id LOVE to have one to play around with. But there is something to be said about the build level and overall equipment quality of these bigger machines, and if I had to put my money on which machine will still be cranking out drinks ten years from now, they'd both probably be there, but my money would go on the E61 tank.
Thanks for your comments. I was interested in the Vibiemme DD but a retailer I trust told me they may drop it due to issues with it. Plus I think it is even bigger than the Duetto..
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 421 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 4:08pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
Winnisk Said:
If we assume, for a minute, that each machine has identical functionality and reliability, that they make identical espresso and that each machine will be maintenance free for the next ten years, is cost then the only difference? For some I am sure the answer is yes. For me, however, there are is also user experience and aesthetic value that I need to factor in.
That is what I am trying to figure out. Do they alllmake indentical espresso? Which machine will be the msot maintenance free? For me, it isnt cost. Its the end result, ease of use, quality in the cup, least likely to fail and easy to fix.
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 4:19pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
cuznvin Said:
That is what I am trying to figure out. Do they alllmake indentical espresso? Which machine will be the msot maintenance free? For me, it isnt cost. Its the end result, ease of use, quality in the cup, least likely to fail and easy to fix.
The owners threads for the various machines are a good clue about the problems you're likely to encounter with them. As far as I can tell, trouble-free operation is quite rare in this class of machine.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 421 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 4:22pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
BubbaDude Said:
The owners threads for the various machines are a good clue about the problems you're likely to encounter with them. As far as I can tell, trouble-free operation is quite rare in this class of machine.
Mine has been trouble-free for a year, but other commenters - I don't know how many are real - have reported issues with o-rings after 12-15 months of use or so. Breville has apparently redesigned the gasket between the 3 way and the group, which may be a response to such issues. I'm letting mine run to see how far it gets before encountering a problem, sort of a scientific experiment.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 4:29pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
As hesitant as I am to respond, respond I must . . .
Let me quickly say I do not have a DB. Rather, I own three HX machines and one manual, open-boiler lever machine. That said, three out of four have been trouble-free for the 3-5 years I've owned them. One had the pressurestat replaced, but then these things do wear out.
But keep in mind that not all machines have an "owner's threads," nor are they needed.
cuznvin Said:
That is what I am trying to figure out. Do they alllmake indentical (sic) espresso?
The short answer is "no." No two machines will make identical espresso. There will be subtle variations. Not even two E61s will produce identical espresso . . .
But more importantly, will each of these machines produce quality espresso, and do so for a long time? Well, I have no doubts at all about two of them, and quite probably all three, so you won't be going wrong there.
CMIN Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2012 Posts: 513 Location: South FL Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 4:42pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
Italo2275 Said:
So I have some updates. I had the luck to play with the Brevil DB as I know someone who works for them. Homestly I was not impressed with it. We went though a bag of coffe trying to figure out why we could not get good crema, we even called the Tech support and they said it might be the Grinder, but I do not think so, becuase the finest setting was bottoming out the machine. Too much work and at then end of the day I do not like it. We tried differentg coffee and still same result.
So I still want to get one of the ones in my main post. I spoke to the IDRINKCOFFE guys and they reccomended the r58 as they say it performs very well. They did mention that on the Alex duetto eventyally the PID burns out do to the locatio of where it is located.
I think any of the 3 machines I would be happy with, but now it is a matter on wich to make the investment in.
Sounds more like an issue with the grinder or beans used, or user error in prep. Don't have Breville DB but a buddy has two, one for office and one for home, shots are some of the best I've had, very very temp stable. The one in the office get's used non stop for I don't know, year and a half now?, no issues. Love that Alex 3.0 though.
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