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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Livia 90 Auto  
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erit2012
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erit2012
Joined: 9 Dec 2011
Posts: 23
Location: Ontario
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:22am
Subject: Livia 90 Auto
 

Hey I just recently got a used Livia 90 Auto and I'm trying to trouble shoot this issue;

The water spout wand Is releasing about an oz of water before violently turning into a sputter of air and steam until the boiler is empty.





Thanks
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fnacer
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Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 465
Location: Denver
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Salvatore E61, Vivaldi Mini...
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Posted Sat Feb 16, 2013, 9:43pm
Subject: Re: Livia 90 Auto
 

Assuming that the boiler pressure is not in the red, those symptoms may indicate that the water level in the boiler is too low. Try pulling the water level probe out a bit and see if that results in more water and less steam.
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erit2012
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erit2012
Joined: 9 Dec 2011
Posts: 23
Location: Ontario
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 4:53am
Subject: Re: Livia 90 Auto
 

fnacer Said:

Assuming that the boiler pressure is not in the red, those symptoms may indicate that the water level in the boiler is too low. Try pulling the water level probe out a bit and see if that results in more water and less steam.

Posted February 16, 2013 link

That seems to be a plausible idea. The grouphead dispenses enough water, evenly; and never sputters air. The steam wand coulddd be more powerful, it's shooting kinda weak steam. But the water spout is really just sputtering air. I'll have to try to mess around with the water tank sensor, and maybe take apart the boiler; see if there's any loose connection that fell apart. The thing is if the boiler was 3/4 full wouldn't the group head sputter air as well? It seems to be only the water spout and it's just a copper tube straight from the boiler to a valve. Very confusing... perhaps the group head takes water from the bottom of the boiler, where as the hot water dispenser is at the top of the boiler. Do you have any experience with BZ99 or  Livia 90 boilers?

Edit: Looking at a diagram of a BZ99 Boiler, I see there are tubes that go down into the boiler as to syphon water from the bottom of it rather than the top, It's MOSST likley come loose; that would make the most sense. However that does not change the fact that there's air in the boiler.. Is this problematic? or are the boilers never really 100% full?
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erit2012
Senior Member
erit2012
Joined: 9 Dec 2011
Posts: 23
Location: Ontario
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 6:56am
Subject: Re: Livia 90 Auto
 

Here's the connection that I'm referring to. There's not much room for error here, it's a tube coming from the boiler straight to the valve on the water dispensing wand. The white part is plastic and is perfectly intact. And the valve, and all the nuts are nicely secure.

http://postimage.org/image/5r6eiv9kl/


However, this is the flow of water

http://postimage.org/image/5p21vo1e3/
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no7fish
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Joined: 2 Apr 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Carolinas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Pasquini Livia
Grinder: Hario (+DeWalt)
Drip: plastic pour-over
Roaster: hot air popper
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 9:05am
Subject: Re: Livia 90 Auto
 

The grouphead water doesn't come from the boiler.  It comes from the water tank and is pumped through the boiler via the heat exchanger tube.  Hence, if the boiler water is low your grouphead water is probably not getting to full temp either.
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 11:41am
Subject: Re: Livia 90 Auto
 

Is the pump turning on to fill the boiler when you take water out of the machine? It should auto fill the boiler when you take water out of the boiler.

 
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fnacer
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Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 465
Location: Denver
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Salvatore E61, Vivaldi Mini...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini, Gaggia MDF,...
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 2:42pm
Subject: Re: Livia 90 Auto
 

Here's how the boiler is supposed to work.

When you turn on a machine that has no water or too little water in the boiler, the pump will turn on and fill the water until it reaches the water level probe. At that point, the top of the boiler is filled with air. How much water and much air depends on the design of the boiler and how deep the water level probe is set. For the same of this explanation, assume 2/3 of the boiler is water and 1/3 is air.

As the water heats up, some of it begins to turn to steam. That steam pushes the air out and fills 1/3 of the boiler. Eventually, the steam pressure reaches a set point and the heater turns off. So now, you have 2/3 hot water and 1/3 steam in the boiler.

When you open the steam valve, you release steam from the top of the boiler. When you open the hot water valve, you release hot water from the bottom of the boiler (via that dipper tube in your photo).

If you leave the steam valve open too long, you will run out of steam and the heater will turn on to convert more of the water into steam. If you still have the steam valve open at this point, you will eventually get nothing, then some hot air, then some hot water and eventually some steam out of it.

If you leave the hot water valve open too long, you will run out of hot water, may get a few puffs of steam before the pump kicks on to add more cold water. If you still have the hot water valve open at this point, you get nothing. No water because cold water cannot rise inside the dipper tube and no steam because the end of the dipper tube should be sitting in water.  By now, the pressure in the boiler is too low and the heater will turn on to heat the water and produce steam and repeat the cycle described above.

Note that the grouphead water does not figure into any this. As no7fish said, that water is coming directly from the water tank and goes through the boiler inside its own tube. As long as you have water in the tank and as long as the pump is working properly, you can get water through the grouphead at any time. If you do it as soon as you turn on the machine, the water will be cold (because the boiler is cold). If you do it when the boiler is hot, the water will be warm to hot. The only exception I can think of is when the boiler is being filled. In that case, the water from the tank may be diverted away from the grouphead and into the boiler temporarily.

How does your machine's operation differ from this?
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