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Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
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Best bang for the buck in E-61 Espresso Machines.  In stock, free shipping, 2 yr warranty!
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MerleApAmber
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 203
Location: Atlanta
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900
Grinder: Baratza Preciso + Esatto
Vac Pot: Yuma
Drip: bah-humbug
Roaster: Hot Top 2K P
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 9:28pm
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
 

Iluvdabean Said:

OK...why dont you BDB people just settle for less expensive machine made in China from a company noted for its toasters and blenders which at least for now
does make fine espresso but has no track record.
Isn't that about as fair as it gets.:)

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Gee Steve,
I think that's what we've done. Sorry your experience with the company didn't pan out, left you with the taste of excreta in your mouth, and inspired you to be our holy crusader. I can't wait until the day I come with my hat in hand and tell the entire world - YOU WERE RIGHT! so you can finally feel justified and say "See! I told ya so!"  Then when I finally mortgage my house to buy the GS3 I knew I shoulda had ... I too can come to the CG forums and shake my head every time some one says I think I'd like great coffee but I frankly can't ante up the $$$ these other guys can afford... but, I think I'd really like to know what great coffee is.... Should I just stay with my Barista? MY 155? my aero press?

Man, seriously... You have baggage; and it's really getting old. PLEASE.  Or better yet, PM me (and everyone else you need to save from ourselves) so I can give you my bank account information and you can gift me the difference between what I can afford - and what I must NEED.

Kids have to crawl before they walk, and run before they ride; otherwise they just don't know what is and how to deal with all the new sensory feed back.
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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,278
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 9:29pm
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
 

calblacksmith Said:

Nice post Steve!
I can't see anything to take issue with.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Agreed!  10x over!

calblacksmith Said:

I think that there is still a widely accepted mistaken believe that a DB is "better or higher status" than a HX, likely because they cost more and if I can get a "better" machine for "less" that is an attractive lure.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Yes, well . . . there are those here who know this, and understand it; and then there are those who -- well, let me stop there.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

AlexKilpatrick Said:

Is a GS/3 6X better than the BDB (it costs about 6x as much)?

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Is any machine worth 6x than another? How do you objectively quantify that?

AlexKilpatrick Said:

With technology changing, do you want the same machine over 20 years?

Posted February 17, 2013 link

That's simple.  Yes.  These are not television sets or computers.  And yet I have no doubt that there are still some black-and-white sets still in use, and that people can still produced emails, letters, spreadsheets, and term papers on a machine with a 80286 chip, or an original Mac.  These, however, are espresso machines, and many people come here seeking machines specifically designed with an E61 grouphead -- a 50+ year old technology that is still in widespread use PRECISELY because it is that good!  

AlexKilpatrick Said:

What is the value of the fact that the italian makers originated the technology?  Does it mean they understand it better?  Or is it stagnant tech that hasn't changes in 20 years?

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Well, it clearly isn't stagnant . . . and regardless of whether they are Italian or German or French or Americans, I do want them to understand the technology.

>>>  FWIW, and in the interest of full disclosure, I have two machines in daily use: one has an E61 group, and the other does not.  Both are HX machines, a technology that pre-dates DBs.

AlexKilpatrick Said:

What is the value of the design compared to value of functionality?

Posted February 17, 2013 link

That is a very subjective question that differs for every individual.  Does anyone need a Mercedes or BMW when a VW Golf or a Fiat 500 will get them where they want to go?  Even presuming one needs a two-seater sports car, what is the value of the design of an Aston-Martin or a Ferrari, over a Porsche?  For me, I opted to buy an Elektra T1 rather than a Cimbali Junior DT1.  Why?  Both have the same features, both have the same/similar build quality -- the same functionality -- but the Elektra cost slightly more.  So what was the deciding factor?  Why did I choose the more expensive machine?  Aesthetics.  The value of design.

AlexKilpatrick Said:

What is the risk/reward ratio for taking a chance on the BDB?

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Risks:  disappointment in poor build quality (based upon company reputation and past performance, which does not appear to be the case to date); a machine without a track-record and with no reputation for machine longevity -- thus necessitating a purchase of a "replacement" machine sooner than one might otherwise need to when purchasing a machine with durability as a part of its DNA; a machine that must be returned to be serviced.

Rewards:  a machine that works.

For me, I wouldn't take the risk.  

AlexKilpatrick Said:

Has anyone done a blind taste test between the BDB and higher-end machines?

Posted February 17, 2013 link

The machine is the least-important of the 4 M's.  That said, every machine will yield a slightly different flavor profile -- same beans, same grinder, same barista.  It may be more subtle than (e.g.) two shots pulled by the same barista on the same machine with the same beans but with two different grinders, but they will be different nonetheless.

So I'm not sure what you think a blind tasting would accomplish.

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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AlexKilpatrick
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 117
Location: Austin

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Bairtiza Vario
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 9:56pm
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
 

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

So I'm not sure what you think a blind tasting would accomplish.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

I realize that for a lot of you this is about a million things other than the coffee.  To me, that is all that matters.  I'm an engineer, so I am certainly biased that way.  A blind taste test would tell me whether one machine makes better coffee than another, plain and simple.  You would need to do a few trials to get around variations due to barista technique, but that is basic experimental design.

Also, the fact that the E61 is 50 years old doesn't, by itself, mean there is no room for innovation.  I don't know enough espresso chemistry to know the advantages/disadvantages of E61 over Breville's design.  However, I do know they spend 2.5 years of R&D on it.  There is certainly a possibility that it is an improvement.  Innovation often comes from unlikely places.
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,217
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 10:42pm
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
 

Your emotional and upset...I understand. Its difficult to have a meaningful discussion with someone who feels this way. I refuse to argue or fight about it, thats always pointless.
With all that said, it is important to reiterate that there are more than a few here who feel the BDB has no track record. I am happy you like yours and thats great.
In fact I hope it lasts you a lifetime and you are the first one to post here ten years from now saying its running great.To paint me as a guy who wants to spend your money,has baggage,
or am a holy crusader is disingenuous and a bit emotional dont you think. I simply have raised some concerns, as many others have about Breville. For you to want to start an argument which always
gets threads closed, rather than adress these questions logically just is counter productive.. I think we have a right to ask these questions here, from a company
whose first offering wasnt up to par. Its not personal,and I mean they are known for their other kitchen appliances. They are made in China....correct. So please lets keep it civil and discuss it.


MerleApAmber Said:

Gee Steve,
I think that's what we've done. Sorry your experience with the company didn't pan out, left you with the taste of excreta in your mouth, and inspired you to be our holy crusader. I can't wait until the day I come with my hat in hand and tell the entire world - YOU WERE RIGHT! so you can finally feel justified and say "See! I told ya so!"  Then when I finally mortgage my house to buy the GS3 I knew I shoulda had ... I too can come to the CG forums and shake my head every time some one says I think I'd like great coffee but I frankly can't ante up the $$$ these other guys can afford... but, I think I'd really like to know what great coffee is.... Should I just stay with my Barista? MY 155? my aero press?

Man, seriously... You have baggage; and it's really getting old. PLEASE.  Or better yet, PM me (and everyone else you need to save from ourselves) so I can give you my bank account information and you can gift me the difference between what I can afford - and what I must NEED.

Kids have to crawl before they walk, and run before they ride; otherwise they just don't know what is and how to deal with all the new sensory feed back.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,217
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 11:27pm
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
 

Well back to your question. Keep the Quick Mill.  Its a better machine...period. As far as the cool tech features they still wont make it a better machine than the Quick Mill. Yes even the tool box and hanging tamper.
If you dont believe me just call any reputable shop that sells machines and ask them. There an old saying  IF IT SOUNDS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT PROBABLY IS"There is another one that many of us old
timers have lived long enough to see validated a hundred times over. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR No one is in business to give away something for nothing.If they do they go out of business.
In our economic world since day 1...better things have always cost more because they are better. So there it is in a nutshell.

mariog7 Said:

Hello, all.

I have a Quick Mill Vetrano that is a year old.  I am considering a dual boiler machine for the temperature stability and was considering the BDB for all the other cool tech features. I could probably sell the Vetrano and pick up a BDB for a wash.  But do you think this would be a step back in other aspects, such as durability (plastic vs metal, etc).

Just curious about your opinions.   Thank you!

Posted February 17, 2013 link

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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,278
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 11:27pm
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
 

Yes, I was afraid you were an engineer.  I also noticed you didn't address any of my questions, so let me try one final time.

The problem is you wish to apply engineering principals and (for lack of a better term) "scientific method" to something that is non-scientific and subjective.  Taste is subjective.  What you might prefer is different than what I might, or John, or George, Paul or Ringo might prefer . . . we each have our own taste buds in our mouths, no one else's.  And so, as I said above . . .

The machine is the least-important of the 4 M's.  That said, every machine will yield a slightly different flavor profile -- same beans, same grinder, same barista.  It may be more subtle than (e.g.) two shots pulled by the same barista on the same machine with the same beans but with two different grinders, but they will be different nonetheless.

So I would expect the shot pulled on Machine A to taste different than Machine B . . . and different from Machines C, D and E.  And they do.

AlexKilpatrick Said:

A blind taste test would tell me whether one machine makes better coffee than another, plain and simple.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

If you are using one steam toy and one "real" espresso machine, this may be true.  But one doesn't need a blind tasting for that.  But were you to take two different machines -- let's say a BDB and GS/3, since you seem to be fond of that comparison -- I have no doubt the shots are different.  Again, "better" is subjective, and the answer will vary for every individual.  You might prefer one, while I might prefer another -- so, too, will there be differences between every John, Paul, George, or Ringo that partakes.  

As someone who has spent my entire professional life dealing with taste, with the describing of taste, writing about how things taste, I (obviously) take a different approach from those favored by scientists and engineers.  But blind tastings are only as good as their methodology, and the most meaningful blind tastings eliminate as many variables as possible -- ideally examining only one variable at a time.  In the case at hand, it would be to eliminate all variables other than the two machines, i.e. a head-to-head comparison -- and we already know the machines WILL yield different shots.  So . . . how much of the difference is attributed to the differences between two machines, versus the other three M's*?

Same grinder.  Same beans (roasted same day, taken from the same bag).  Same barista.  But since we've yet to master the ability of being in two places at once, I presume the shots would be drawn one at a time, and ergo, when presented to the taster, the temperature of the respective shots would  differ from one another, and since the sound of the machines would also differ, one could easily tell which was which.

But, with respect, I find there is no need for a blind tasting.  Again, I have no doubt whatsoever that the shots will differ.  You presume that the taster would not be honest in stating his or her preferences, whereas -- perhaps because of my career -- I believe that one can state a preference for "a" over "b" without being swayed by its mechanical origin.  

AlexKilpatrick Said:

Also, the fact that the E61 is 50 years old doesn't, by itself, mean there is no room for innovation.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Never said there wasn't.  You are assuming "facts not in evidence," as they say.

AlexKilpatrick Said:

I don't know enough espresso chemistry to know the advantages/disadvantages of E61 over Breville's design.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Never said there was.  Again, you are assuming "facts not in evidence."

AlexKilpatrick Said:

However, I do know they spend 2.5 years of R&D on it.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Now, to me, the non-scientist/engineer, that merely tells me that took more than two years and less than three.  It tells my nothing of the quality or excellence of the design itself.  I'm sure that at least 2.5 years were spent by the Ford Motor Company on the Edsel, and it is very likely that at least that much time was spent in developing the Yugo.  We all know how well those worked out.  ;^)  I'm not saying the BDB is an Edsel or a Yugo.  But there is certainly nothing magical about 2.5 years -- developing a new drug often takes far longer than that, and it only tells me that they weren't satisfied after one year, or eighteen months, or two years . . . and that being satisfied at 2.5 years, there was no need to continue R&D into a third or fourth year.

AlexKilpatrick Said:

There is certainly a possibility that it is an improvement.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Improvement in what?  And are we still talking about the BDB versus a GS3, or are we back to the OP's question of a QM Vetrano vs. a Bdb?

There is no difference in the cup between an HX and a DB.  Both methods of producing espresso are capable of yielding excellence in the cup.

There will, however, be a difference between two specific HX machines; between two specific DB machines; and between a specific HX and a specific DB machine.  

/ / / / /

* The Four M's of Espresso:
1) the Macinazione is the grinder, and with it, the correct grinding of the coffee beans;
2) the Miscela is the coffee beans/blend itself;
3) the Macchina is the espresso machine; and
4) the Mano is the skilled hand of the barista.  

All four are important.  Nothing is more important than the grinder.

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,278
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 11:31pm
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
 

mariog7 Said:

Just curious about your opinions.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

To paraphrase "The Godfather," Leave the BDB; take the Vetrano.

 
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cafeespresso
Senior Member


Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 107
Location: South Florida, USA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Pulser
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Roaster: FR 8+, SC/Turbo CO
Posted Mon Feb 18, 2013, 8:45am
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
 

For me the vetrano with Rotary pump > BDB..that would be a deal breaker for me. And I don't think you will win on performance either.

Keep the Vetrano, if you want to play with something different, get a lever :)
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,217
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Feb 18, 2013, 8:59am
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
 

JBL
Read your bio..thats funny Im 61 and grew up in Capitola and saw Hendrix in 68 at Filmore West. Retiring in June moving to Kentucky and leaving California, this States
in sad shape.  This is a good read.
Click Here (texasgopvote.com)



JasonBrandtLewis Said:

To paraphrase "The Godfather," Leave the BDB; take the Vetrano.

Posted February 17, 2013 link

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AlexKilpatrick
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 117
Location: Austin

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Bairtiza Vario
Posted Mon Feb 18, 2013, 9:37am
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
 

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

Yes, I was afraid you were an engineer.  I also noticed you didn't address any of my questions, so let me try one final time.

The problem is you wish to apply engineering principals and (for lack of a better term) "scientific method" to something that is non-scientific and subjective.  Taste is subjective.  What you might prefer is different than what I might, or John, or George, Paul or Ringo might prefer . . . we each have our own taste buds in our mouths, no one else's.  And so, as I said above . . .

Posted February 17, 2013 link

Yes, taste is certainly subjective.  And it is not difficult to do a valid scientific test on something that is subjective.  And I certainly agree that the BDB and GS/3 will produce shots that are different.  Heck, even the GS/3 will produce shots that are different from one trial to the next.  However, all of those variables can be controlled with the proper experimental design.   The point of a blind taste test is to see if one machine makes better espresso than the other, subjective to your tastes.  That's all.  

To you (I imagine), the taste incorporates a lot of factors.  You like knowing you have a machine with a 50 year history, hand-made, etc. etc.  That's all fine.  Personally, I have a mechanical watch that cost around $2000 and doesn't keep as good time as a $20 quartz casio.  But I appreciate the engineering that went into it, like you appreciate the engineering that went into the Italian machines.  I don't have the same appreciation for espresso machines.  To me it is an engineering problem to be solved, just like the quartz watch is a better timepiece from a timekeeping perspective.

There is no difference in the cup between an HX and a DB.  Both methods of producing espresso are capable of yielding excellence in the cup.

There will, however, be a difference between two specific HX machines; between two specific DB machines; and between a specific HX and a specific DB machine.

These seems like contradictory statements to me.  There is no difference between an HX and DB, but there are differences between a specific HX and a specific DB?  To me, they just seem like different ways of maintaining temperature.  Whether they make a difference or not depends on how sensitive the preparation is to consistent temp.  Is it +/- 1 degree?  5 degrees?  .01 degrees?  I don't know the answer, and I don't know that it has been rigorously tested either.  The HX machines do seems like they need a little more finesse, which may or may not be someone's cup of tea.
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