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Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Trying to Decide...  
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,277
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Feb 18, 2013, 9:37pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Informative indeed Dave from England.


DavecUK Said:

Bubbadude,

I'm not going to be as sympathetic as the others, partly because I think in a sense the Breville has done you a favour. You have learned a very hard/expensive lesson. Sometimes with these espresso machines the ownership experience scales exponentially with a little more spend. I hope that next time you buy something that will be easy/cheap to maintain, La Spaziale may perhaps not be the best choice for this. I personally don't like them and although I won't go into my reasons, I do think better choices can be made.

I have extensively reviewed/tested a lot of coffee machines, probably more than 40 different models over the years but, I don't review/test machines in the category of the Breville DB, simply because I am not interested and can't be arsed to do so. My reviews are published (for the machines they stock) on a British site at Bella Barista (some really bad machines they didn't stock and didn't publish the review). They are all locked so cannot be changed and are warts and all reviews. Why don't you have a look at them, most of the ones done in the last 3 years run to 18 pages or so. it may at least give you some things to think about.

At the moment, If I were to recommend a great performing DB machine  in the sensible price range, it would still have to be the Duetto. I am however, about to review a new DB machine in the next month or so, that I think might be even better in terms of price and it will look better..performance may well be the same. Unfortunately you probably won't get them in the US for quite a while.

I think my long post many pages ago has been completely vindicated by your recent experience with the Breville (after a very short period of ownership). Below are pictures of my nearly 6 year old pre-production prototype Duetto. Inside it looks the same as a brand new machine, the pump has been removed and the motor spindle packed with Dow Corning Molycote III in case of a leak and if you look carefully you will see my home made leak indicator in the weep hole. This is simply a small piece of kitchen paper rolled up and used to wick any water out. A water soluble ink line will blur should it ever leak inside. I can check this quickly with a torch and removal of the top place (4 screws). The last picture is a quick photo on the counter. I stress again this is a 6 year old machine, it has never required any spares (apart from group gaskets) and only minimal maintenance (e,g, lubing the cam pins and cursory annual inspections for leaks, etc.. In 6 years time it's going to look pretty much the same. and work just as well. It has also been switched on an average of 15 hours a day for the last 5.5 years, that's more than 30,000 hours!!

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2701/sam4568h.jpg
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3170/sam4574.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2350/sam4577.jpg

It's not about bragging rights, it's not about shiny chrome, it's not about being old fashioned or out of date with off the shelf parts and outdated electronics. It's simply about good design and what works really well, it's about the ability for almost anyone to maintain and repair them and it's about long term ownership.  I currently own 3 machines. A Francino, a R58 dual boiler and the old pre-production Duetto. The Duetto is still by far my favourite, the others sit in boxes. With the reasonable expected lifetime of a Duetto, ownership costs probably top out at less than $1.50 per week, probably a lot less than a single cup of coffee in a Cafe.

Posted February 18, 2013 link

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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Tue Feb 19, 2013, 5:30am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

DavecUK Said:

Bubbadude,

I'm not going to be as sympathetic as the others, partly because I think in a sense the Breville has done you a favour. You have learned a very hard/expensive lesson. Sometimes with these espresso machines the ownership experience scales exponentially with a little more spend. I hope that next time you buy something that will be easy/cheap to maintain, La Spaziale may perhaps not be the best choice for this. I personally don't like them and although I won't go into my reasons, I do think better choices can be made.

I have extensively reviewed/tested a lot of coffee machines, probably more than 40 different models over the years but, I don't review/test machines in the category of the Breville DB, simply because I am not interested and can't be arsed to do so. My reviews are published (for the machines they stock) on a British site at Bella Barista (some really bad machines they didn't stock and didn't publish the review). They are all locked so cannot be changed and are warts and all reviews. Why don't you have a look at them, most of the ones done in the last 3 years run to 18 pages or so. it may at least give you some things to think about.

At the moment, If I were to recommend a great performing DB machine  in the sensible price range, it would still have to be the Duetto. I am however, about to review a new DB machine in the next month or so, that I think might be even better in terms of price and it will look better..performance may well be the same. Unfortunately you probably won't get them in the US for quite a while.

I think my long post many pages ago has been completely vindicated by your recent experience with the Breville (after a very short period of ownership). Below are pictures of my nearly 6 year old pre-production prototype Duetto. Inside it looks the same as a brand new machine, the pump has been removed and the motor spindle packed with Dow Corning Molycote III in case of a leak and if you look carefully you will see my home made leak indicator in the weep hole. This is simply a small piece of kitchen paper rolled up and used to wick any water out. A water soluble ink line will blur should it ever leak inside. I can check this quickly with a torch and removal of the top place (4 screws). The last picture is a quick photo on the counter. I stress again this is a 6 year old machine, it has never required any spares (apart from group gaskets) and only minimal maintenance (e,g, lubing the cam pins and cursory annual inspections for leaks, etc.. In 6 years time it's going to look pretty much the same. and work just as well. It has also been switched on an average of 15 hours a day for the last 5.5 years, that's more than 30,000 hours!!

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2701/sam4568h.jpg
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3170/sam4574.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2350/sam4577.jpg

It's not about bragging rights, it's not about shiny chrome, it's not about being old fashioned or out of date with off the shelf parts and outdated electronics. It's simply about good design and what works really well, it's about the ability for almost anyone to maintain and repair them and it's about long term ownership.  I currently own 3 machines. A Francino, a R58 dual boiler and the old pre-production Duetto. The Duetto is still by far my favourite, the others sit in boxes. With the reasonable expected lifetime of a Duetto, ownership costs probably top out at less than $1.50 per week, probably a lot less than a single cup of coffee in a Cafe.

Posted February 18, 2013 link

I am curious to find out about the new double boiler. Can you tell us anything about it?
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,449
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Feb 19, 2013, 5:36am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

cuznvin Said:

I am curious to find out about the new double boiler. Can you tell us anything about it?

Posted February 19, 2013 link

There are a couple, one being designed and the other ready for test from 2 different manufacturers, that's all I can say for now. Unfortunately (because I like reviewing dual boiler systems), I have some Bezzera machines to review/test before then, a cheap one an expensive one and a Lever, the Strega I think, so that's going to take a while, because with 2 weeks per machine, it's difficult to have more than 2 running at once....and one can only drink so much coffee.
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Tue Feb 19, 2013, 5:41am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

DavecUK Said:

There are a couple, one being designed and the other ready for test from 2 different manufacturers, that's all I can say for now. Unfortunately (because I like reviewing dual boiler systems), I have some Bezzera machines to review/test before then, a cheap one an expensive one and a Lever, the Strega I think, so that's going to take a while, because with 2 weeks per machine, it's difficult to have more than 2 running at once....and one can only drink so much coffee.

Posted February 19, 2013 link

Does Bezzera make a double boiler?
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JohnLyn
Senior Member
JohnLyn
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Posts: 243
Location: Golden, BC, Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldy
Grinder: Vario
Drip: Bonavita
Roaster: Toastess popper
Posted Tue Feb 19, 2013, 8:00am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

BubbaDude Said:

After thirteen months of trouble-free operation, by BDB is in a world of hurt.

Posted February 18, 2013 link

Unbelievable, especially the issue with warranty. That is the one thing they have been good at. Looking forward to what you get next. I have been holding back from not suggesting it to people thinking I was alone in having problems. I may never recommend it again.

DavecUK Said:

I hope that next time you buy something that will be easy/cheap to maintain, La Spaziale may perhaps not be the best choice for this. I personally don't like them and although I won't go into my reasons, I do think better choices can be made.

Posted February 18, 2013 link

Give us an idea of your reasons. I decided in favour of the La Spaziale over the duetto. I'm very happy with it, trouble free and great coffee, but I am curious as to what you discovered.
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sweaner
Senior Member
sweaner
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 1,129
Location: Yardley, PA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano, Arrarex Caravel, La...
Grinder: Mazzer SJ, OE Pharos
Drip: Bunn Trifecta MB
Roaster: Poppery II
Posted Tue Feb 19, 2013, 9:09am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Bubba, I would not take no for an answer from Breville. You bought a new machine from a reputable seller, and should be entitled to full warranty protection.

I suggest you call back and talk to someone else at Breville. Go up the chain as far as you need to, even trying to get the designers. This is unacceptable, and if they do not make good for you, a known supporter of the machine, how will they treat others?

 
-Scott
“Coffee - the favorite drink of the civilized world.”
Thomas Jefferson
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AlexKilpatrick
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 117
Location: Austin

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Bairtiza Vario
Posted Tue Feb 19, 2013, 9:36am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

BubbaDude Said:

Sometimes your first instinct is the right one. I'm sorry if anybody bought one of these stinkers on my advice. It looks like a disposable espresso machine just good enough to outlast the warranty. Rather than replace a Breville every year, it seems a bit more prudent to look for a machine that can last five years for twice the price.

Posted February 18, 2013 link

Just curious - would you still have this opinion if they had replaced your machine under warranty?

I remember you playing down the initial reported failures as being just part of any new machine.
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joatmon
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Greer, SC
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:14am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 522
Location: High in the Rockies
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:29am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

joatmon Said:

I submit that an individuals support of a product or lack thereof should have no influence on the manufacturer's decision regarding warranty qualification.

Posted February 19, 2013 link

Yes, and I would have a different opinion if they were willing to stand behind the machine.

They're playing lawyer with me over the fine print in the warranty that says it's non-transferable. They also insist that Amazon LLC is an authorized seller but Amazon Warehouse Deals Inc. is not, and they only honor authorized purchases.

It seems to me that they know damn well that machines in the production run that produced mine have problems with the seals and the firmware, neither of which can be fixed by the user on his own. So playing lawyer may save them a few pennies, but it's expensive to those of us who took a risk on an early stage product.

The thing I like about the Spazzy Dream is that is has the same features as the BDB plus you can buy parts, store profiles, and update the code.

I'm not tempted by big and shiny and there will never be an E-61 in my house.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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joatmon
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Greer, SC
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:43am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

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