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Frosted
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Joined: 1 Jun 2008
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Posted Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:25am
Subject: Mater XP700 Failure, Help!
 

The XP700 in my Dalla Corte Supermini in failing. The pressure-stat and the micro-switch are fine. All is good with the deadband and the boiler pressure (when the electro-mechanical relay is working properly). The relay gave me problems before, and I was successful in cleaning and regapping the contact points (since a replacement is hard to find) and have been getting continued operation out of the machine for many months. But now I would like to change the setup to eliminated that sketchy little relay (I see that Mater isn't even making this pressure-stat anymore). My first thought is to by-pass it with a SSR. One rated AC 110VAC/25amp seems like it would do the job. Can anyone see a reason why that couldn't be done? I think this particular unit is in the machine because it needed a 16A pressure-stat to drive the 1850W element. It seems like a Sirai would solve the problem and that a SSR will just help with the contact life.

Dalla Corte does have a fix for this, but I do not know what is involved or the price. I just keep hearing the word "triac".

Any help you have with this would be appreciated. Thanks.
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
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Location: UK
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Posted Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:57am
Subject: Re: Mater XP700 Failure, Help!
 

I tested one of these for 3 weeks and quite liked the machine a few things to improve, but overall it worked well and there was/is no other really good dual boiler with that sort of footprint. Kinda ugly, but I'm an engineer, so didn't care <lol> . Out of interest you might want to look at my review of it back in late 2007

Click Here (www.bellabarista.co.uk)

Now to your problem. Just stick in a Mater XP110 and link it to a 240/240V or 110/110V SSR to switch the heating elements (depending on your voltage). The XP110 is cheap and should be a drop in replacement (The 700 was simply an XP110 with a relay, I could go back and check my test notes, I suppose). I'll bet they really want a reach around for an XP700 (if you can still find one)

You do have a slight problem, in that you need to find a suitable heat sink it that hot little Dallacorte case and whilst your doing it, you should fit a bypass switch to the steam boiler, if you have not already done so....no need to have it on all the time is there. I would imagine the only heat sink you can use on the base as indicated on the attached image in red, or alternatively underneath the water tank, which would be the coolest location and there should just be space. Don't worry about the water as you can use one with a plastic shield and the worse that can happen is you trip your GFI/RCD device (which you must surely have if your running a coffee machine).

I would recommend an 80 amp SSR (I like the Crydom units personally), it's only intermittent use, so there won't be a lot of strain on it, but don't cheap out on the SSR and try to use a 30 or 40 amp one!.

Spec sheets for the XP110 and XP700 pressurestat, both links have a full technical diagram and specification which can be enlarged for viewing with a click.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/ma-ter-xp110-pressurestat
http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/ma-ter-xp700-pressurestat

P.S. I Put the steam bypass switch on the switching side of the Relay on my machine, this way it's only handling mA. I realise this is telling you how to suck eggs, but it's for the benefit of those less knowledgeable reading the post. With an SSR it's better to have the bypass switch on the load side.

DavecUK: dalla2.JPG
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Coffeenoobie
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Coffeenoobie
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Posted Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:15am
Subject: Re: Mater XP700 Failure, Help!
 

I always appreciate people spelling stuff out even if it seems simple.  I learn from reading about other people's issues and machines.

 
Coffeenoobie

Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder.

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Click Here (maps.google.com)

Oscar trick out: http://s156.photobucket.com/user/GandBteam/story/14231
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Frosted
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Joined: 1 Jun 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Seattle
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Supermini, La...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini, Super Jolly,...
Posted Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:39pm
Subject: Re: Mater XP700 Failure, Help!
 

Dave,
Thanks for your quick and thorough reply. I did see your review back in '07. Nicely done!

I had the spec sheet for the XP700 and when I compared it to the specs of the XP110 you supplied, they are rated pretty much the same. But this is 2013 and the XP700 was used back in 2006/2007, so maybe the simpler XP110 has been redesigned to handle 16A without the mini relay.

I have a Supermini, which is larger than the Mini, so there is plenty of room to mount the SSR to the base panel and it is quite far away from the boiler, so it does not get hot. Also, the machine has a boiler bypass switch (an added feature of the Supermini).

If you look at the diagram for the XP700, I have identified all of the connections.
6a is power from boiler bypass switch
6b is to the heating element
6c is from the neutral side of the power switch
6d is power from the pressure-stat micro-switch

My assumption (and PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, you are much better versed in this then I am), is to connect the following on the SSR (I have a Crydom TA1225, which is a Triac AC 120/25A SSR)
6a - SSR 1
6b - SSR 2
6c - SSR 4
6d - SSR 3

Here in the US, the Supermini runs on 15A 110VAC. The XP700 is rated to 16A, so I thought a 25A SSR should be more that enough. Am I wrong?

Your information here confirms my thoughts. I can't thank you enough for your help. By the way, Dalla Corte has a fix for this with a Triac relay. It costs $300US. Nice solution to replace funky $35US part!
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DavecUK
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Posts: 1,466
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Posted Mon Feb 25, 2013, 1:35pm
Subject: Re: Mater XP700 Failure, Help!
 

The XP110 always had a 16A rating, and manufacturers used them as such, but the trouble was they arced like mad and failed early. It was what gave pressurestats in general a bad name for failure rates (apart from the Heavy Duty Sirai jobs, which had an inbuilt relay inside the case). A MATER XP110, with good water and on a relay should have a very long life indeed, mine has been going for 6 years without incident.

I didn't spot you had the Supermini, so yes, you have a LOT more room. I personally would put a higher rating than 25A in, 40A at the absolute minimum, 80A is better. Remember it's hard to heatsink it fully to spec...well perhaps you cen, but the price difference is not that much. Also remember some of them can fail closed!

Frosted Said:

If you look at the diagram for the XP700, I have identified all of the connections.
6a is power from boiler bypass switch
6b is to the heating element
6c is from the neutral side of the power switch
6d is power from the pressure-stat micro-switch

My assumption (and PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, you are much better versed in this then I am), is to connect the following on the SSR (I have a Crydom TA1225, which is a Triac AC 120/25A SSR)
6a - SSR 1
6b - SSR 2
6c - SSR 4
6d - SSR 3

Here in the US, the Supermini runs on 15A 110VAC. The XP700 is rated to 16A, so I thought a 25A SSR should be more that enough. Am I wrong?

Your information here confirms my thoughts. I can't thank you enough for your help. By the way, Dalla Corte has a fix for this with a Triac relay. It costs $300US. Nice solution to replace funky $35US part!

Posted February 25, 2013 link

I revised my earlier post, because I was thinking of my machine and it's electromechanical relay with different characteristics. SSRs tend to fail closed. With the switch on the load side of the circuit if the SSR fails closed, then your able to isolate the heating element, that switch is handling 10 amps plus (not a huge problem). If you put the switch on the low amperage side of the circuit, then even if the SSR fails closed the heating element cannot be isolated.

So yes, rewire the same way it was with the switch on the high current part of the circuit, If you have correctly identified the connections, then your SSR wiring looks fine.

I usually work on the thermal derate curves without a heatsink as most surfaces people try to heatsink them to on an espresso machine are hot e.g. front panel and at about 60-70C that gives 4 or 5 amps for a 25A SSR, so an 75-80A usually handles 15A OK in those circumstances. If you already have the SSR, definitely have a cool plate to mount it on and the ambients are 25Cish, then you should be OK, besides doesn't hurt to try. Perhaps a blob of thermal heatsink paste would also help (e.g. arctic silver). Crydom themselves recommend an SSR is only used at 70% of it's rated output, but that would be for continuous use I imagine.

Remember also that normal fuese won't protect the SSR, so if you get a bad connection and arcing (heating element connectors), it's gonna try and draw a lot more current than it should and burn out your 25A SSR in short order (a 75A may well survive what a 25A won't in this scenario). So you may want to consider some sort of appropriate in-line fuse  http://www.crydom.com/en/Tech/Tips/How%20to%20select%20the%20right%20fuse.pdf


Dalla Corte are taking the piss aren't they $300....geez
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Frosted
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Joined: 1 Jun 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Seattle
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Supermini, La...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini, Super Jolly,...
Posted Mon Feb 25, 2013, 6:03pm
Subject: Re: Mater XP700 Failure, Help!
 

Dave,
Thanks for your help with this. Since I have the 1225 relay, I'm going to give that a try. Do you think it is worth trying to find a heat sink for it? I do not have the side panels on the machine right now, so I can't judge ambient heat, but the bottom panel is cool to the touch. The boiler is mounted well above.

What do you think of the Sirai? It has been suggested to me that the deadband isn't as tight as the XP110. Have you found that to be true? I'm not sure how critical that is on the steam boiler. For now, the pressure-stat portion of the XP700 seems fine. So I will work on the relay bypass and leave it in.
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Feb 25, 2013, 8:02pm
Subject: Re: Mater XP700 Failure, Help!
 

Frosted Said:

Dave,
Thanks for your help with this. Since I have the 1225 relay, I'm going to give that a try. Do you think it is worth trying to find a heat sink for it? I do not have the side panels on the machine right now, so I can't judge ambient heat, but the bottom panel is cool to the touch. The boiler is mounted well above.

What do you think of the Sirai? It has been suggested to me that the deadband isn't as tight as the XP110. Have you found that to be true? I'm not sure how critical that is on the steam boiler. For now, the pressure-stat portion of the XP700 seems fine. So I will work on the relay bypass and leave it in.

Posted February 25, 2013 link

You should be able to use the bottom of the case as a heat sink, just ensure it's mounted tight and probably some thermal paste will help, as in a CPU. If you don't heat sink it, it will be too derated to carry the load and will risk failing.

The big Sirai  pressurestats have a relay within them and make a loud click (I have one in one of my coffee machines). However they are not best suited to domestic machines, especially ones with smaller boilers. The machine I have has a 2 litre boiler and a 2.4Kw heating element, so it's not such a problem. However, as you rightly say, it has a wide deadband and this makes it a problem with the smaller boilers and lower power heating elements. It's unfortunate that there is a lot of well meaning, but misguided advice on forums to use these commercial Sirai stats. The Mater has a much tighter dead band and is more suitable for your machine....

If the pressurestat bit is fine, bypassing the relay seems sensible... and cheaper.

P.S. The pressurestats I really don't like are the CEME ones (they used to use them in the Andreja)....the Parker ones (as in expobars) are OK-ish, but don't like being adjusted too much (the adjuster breaks up).
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Frosted
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Joined: 1 Jun 2008
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Location: Seattle
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Supermini, La...
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Posted Tue Feb 26, 2013, 9:49am
Subject: Re: Mater XP700 Failure, Help!
 

Dave,
Thought you might like seeing the Dalla Corte fix. It is a new little board. Does it look like the board controls power and switching? The power for the micro-switch on the PS is through the board. That little gem there is $300.

On another note. Crydom makes SSRs that are 240VAC & 25A, 50A, 75A, 90A, 110A, 125A. If you had to pick one, which would you choose? The 110VAC only go to 40A.

Thanks again.
Rik

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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
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Posted Tue Feb 26, 2013, 11:40am
Subject: Re: Mater XP700 Failure, Help!
 

Frosted Said:

Dave,
Thought you might like seeing the Dalla Corte fix. It is a new little board. Does it look like the board controls power and switching? The power for the micro-switch on the PS is through the board. That little gem there is $300.

On another note. Crydom makes SSRs that are 240VAC & 25A, 50A, 75A, 90A, 110A, 125A. If you had to pick one, which would you choose? The 110VAC only go to 40A.

Thanks again.
Rik

Posted February 26, 2013 link

Those guys at Dalla Corte, right little rascals aren't they, sometimes I just love some of these manufacturers. Do it badly in the first place then royally roger the user to put it right....pretty much like the UK government in that respect.

As for the SSRs, you really don't have a problem, simply choose one with a 90 - 280VAC or whatever control voltage and a 30V (or whatever) - 280VAC line voltage, this way your covered nicely, especially for spikes etc.. I can't see why it would not work fine, that's what I would choose in the UK. I am also pretty sure thats what was chosen by a US chap who did a similar fix to his early Duetto (SSR replacing a Mech relay). They don't care whether it's 50 or 60 Hz going thru them. It's a non inductive load so I think you want a zero crossover.

However, I thought you were going to use the one you had....worse that can happen is it fails closed or melts a bit?
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Frosted
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Joined: 1 Jun 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Seattle
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Supermini, La...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini, Super Jolly,...
Posted Tue Feb 26, 2013, 12:35pm
Subject: Re: Mater XP700 Failure, Help!
 

Thanks again for your help with this.
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