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2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > 2k budget ideas...  
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CoffeeRon
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CoffeeRon
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 657
Location: Tacoma Wa.
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Wega Lyra, Europiccola(still...
Grinder: K-30 Vario,Pharos, Vario-W,...
Vac Pot: Sunbeam CoffeeMaster
Drip: Melita BCM-4
Roaster: FR SR500,B-1600, SC/TO
Posted Sun Feb 24, 2013, 6:38pm
Subject: Re: 2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
 

Dapuma Said:

That article was very informative, thank you - which leads me to more questions :)

Posted February 24, 2013 link

If I understand correctly:

1)  So for a double boiler the temperature is always set to the perfect temp to extract, because it has it's own heater setting, and then the steamer has it's own heater setting?
2)  So if I had a double boiler machine on for two hours and then decided it was time to make a shot, would i need to do the same thing or it will not be "overheated"

I can't speak for DBs as I haven't used one, It would seem to me the brewhead would be the right temp since the circulating water is such.

3)  With a HX machine you have to drain 30 seconds of water roughly each time you do a pull unless you just pulled then maybe just 10 seconds or so

To quote the article-
"For the majority of home baristas, that's enough detail to produce very good espresso. The key points to retain are:

Draw water until the water dance ends, plus a little more to taste
Allow a short recovery time after the cooling flush.
The "rebound time" is easy enough to integrate into your routine without much conscious thought. It simply means not dawdling in front of the grinder or flush-and-locking in rapid succession. Keep in mind, however, that this is specific to the prosumer E61s discussed in this article. The cooling flush requirements for other HX espresso machines, like for example the commercial LaCimbali Junior (review) with its huge HX, are quite different. "

Only a few seconds are required to bring the temp down, maybe 5 or so is probably what I usually do, 10 tops. One of the variables I've been playing with lately, I've recently started going more towards maybe 10 in my quest for the best, seams to have improved my shots somewhat.

4)  Does steaming milk first make the temperature different for the cooling flush?  Wouldnt that decrease the heated water temp?  Do i need to release some steam first before steaming milk to it is not too hot etc?  Does that make a difference for a HX or double boiler?

Any difference in temp after steaming milk (if there is one) is recovered so quickly as to be insignificant. You need to open the valve just long enough to get rid of any residual water in the steam system before steaming.
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CoffeeRon
Senior Member
CoffeeRon
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 657
Location: Tacoma Wa.
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Wega Lyra, Europiccola(still...
Grinder: K-30 Vario,Pharos, Vario-W,...
Vac Pot: Sunbeam CoffeeMaster
Drip: Melita BCM-4
Roaster: FR SR500,B-1600, SC/TO
Posted Sun Feb 24, 2013, 6:40pm
Subject: Re: 2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
 

Did that wrong- meant to edit
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Jmanespresso
Senior Member
Jmanespresso
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2,109
Location: Westchester NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto II
Grinder: Compak K10 - Vario
Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5
Drip: V60, Beehouse, CCD
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Mon Feb 25, 2013, 3:01am
Subject: Re: 2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
 

Dapuma Said:

That article was very informative, thank you - which leads me to more questions :)

If I understand correctly:

1)  So for a double boiler the temperature is always set to the perfect temp to extract, because it has it's own heater setting, and then the steamer has it's own heater setting?
2)  So if I had a double boiler machine on for two hours and then decided it was time to make a shot, would i need to do the same thing or it will not be "overheated"
3)  With a HX machine you have to drain 30 seconds of water roughly each time you do a pull unless you just pulled then maybe just 10 seconds or so
4)  Does steaming milk first make the temperature different for the cooling flush?  Wouldnt that decrease the heated water temp?  Do i need to release some steam first before steaming milk to it is not too hot etc?  Does that make a difference for a HX or double boiler?

Posted February 24, 2013 link


  1.  Two Boilers, one for steam, one for brew.  The brew boiler is set to whatever temperature you deem proper, somewhere between 198-202F most commonly, but wherever you set it, it will be.  The steam boiler on some machines is set to a standard setting, others, you can adjust it.  The hotter it is, the more powerful the steam.  I run my Alex Duetto II at the maximum steam power available.

  2. IF you had a double boiler machine, and it was on for two hours, or 20 hours, and decided it was time to make a shot, all you do is a quick flush, anywhere from 1oz to 3oz, then build your shot.  The flush is to make sure the grouphead is the exact temp you want.  People often think DBs are better because there is no flushing.  There IS flushing, its just not critical the volume of water flushed, or for how long you flushed, or how long to wait after flushing to pull the shot.  And if you for some reason forgot to flush a few ounces, your shot wouldn't be 100% ruined, it would probably be fine, maybe a degree or two off.  Subsequent shots generally don't require any further flushing.

  3. Yes.  Depending on each machine though.  Some HX machines run hot, some are tuned and need very little flushing.  Different style HX machines, like for example, pretty much any E61 HX, the Elektra Sixties A3/T1, and the La Cimbali Junior, will require much different approaches.  The Elektra recovers very quickly.  Pretty much every shot requires roughly the same kind of flush.  An E61 is in the middle, needing long flushes at first, and shorter and shorter as you continue to pull shots.  The Cimbali is the other end of the spectrum, needing a flush to get started, and then subsequent shots need a quick spritz, or really nothing at all.  These machines utilize a mix valve to carefully regulate the brew temperature.  The current WBC machine, the Nouva Simonelli Aurelia II, is this style of machine.


  4. Steaming milk before or after the shot really doesn't affect the flush.  It might change it slightly, but its not something to worry about, or even plan for.  The main advantage to steaming before or after pulling the shot, as opposed to during the shot, is so that the autofill won't kick on while your shot is pulling, taking away pressure from the grouphead momentarily while it fills the boiler.

You can't have steam thats too hot.  The steam is only hot RIGHT at the very tip of the steam wand.  If you hold your hand right at the tip and turn on the steam wand, you'll burn yourself.  IF you hold your hand as close as two inches away from the tip, the steam feels room temp.  You can't have steam thats too hot.  This is one advantage of a Dual Boiler.. You can crank the steam boiler temperature all the way up to maximum without affecting your shot temp, so that you can have the most pressure available to make the creamiest milk.  On an HX, the hotter you run the boiler, the more water you need to flush.  Not a deal breaker either way, but a nice little thing about DBs.



I AM a fan of a Dual Boiler over an HX.  I owned two E61 HX machines, and have pretty much confirmed for myself that they're not for me.  You can certainly make good coffee with HX machines, and using them is easier then describing how to use one.  Will you master the machine in a few days?  No.  You can follow instruction to the point where day 1 you should be able to pull some decent shots, but truly, it will be a few months before you fully understand how your machine reacts and behaves.  You'll be pulling shots that whole time, learning, testing, trying different things, and yeah, you'll be pulling good shots.  But it takes some time to get to the point where you can reliably pull 2, 3, 4 shots in a row, that are identical.  When you can do that, your barista skills have reached the level of pretty damn capable.   A Dual boiler will do nothing for your Barista Skills.  YOU still need to make the coffee.  But, at least if you ask me, using a dual boiler is far more enjoyable then using an HX.

 
Follow Your Bliss

Coffee makes your constantly overcome your prejudices and re-evaluate your own "received wisdoms" when it comes to judging cup flavors. -Tom Owen, SweetMarias
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tdifraia
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 78
Location: Boston
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM67
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Bunn
Posted Mon Feb 25, 2013, 9:12am
Subject: Re: 2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
 

The QM67 is my first machine, and I found it very simple to use. What I really like about this machine is the dual PID. You can set the temp of the group head and the pressure in the steaming boiler, by putting in a number. I think this would be easier than adjusting a P-stat. You also get feedback from the PID telling you what your present temps are in both boilers and there is no guessing / surfing required. The thing I found about the QM is it has smaller boilers compared to other DB machines. BUT it recovers  incredibly fast. The heating elements and capacity for the steam and brewing boilers are 1400W / .8 L and 800 W / .75L respectively. The Anita / Andreja are  1400W / 1.6L. It does have its limits when it comes to steaming. When I do my milk drinks I froth the milk first and then pull my shot. I do think it would have a hard time steaming and pulling shots at the same time for multiple drinks. With the standard 2 hole tip the most milk I am able to froth at once is with my 20 oz picture (enough for 2 drinks), but then I have to wait a minute or two for the temps to get caught up before I can pull a shot. Like I said it recovers really fast, but it will not steam for a long amount of time. It also heats one element at a time prioritizing the brew boiler and has a 15 amp (110v) capacity. In the A.M. I do 4 lattes in a row with no problem, but I have to steam the milk for each drink one at a time. It would be faster if I could steam all the milk at once and then pull my shots, but this would tax the temps. To me the dual PID is what seperates this from the Anita and Andreja. The Anita and Andreja have larger boilers 1.6L and are probably better suited for steaming large quantities. But for my use, the advantages the QM bring to the table make it the better machine.

Dapuma Said:

Temp Surfing Question

After reading everything again about the different machines and the heat exchange machines versus the double boiler machines - I do not exactly understand what temp surfing would mean

So compare the Anita to the Andreja Premium to the QM67

Does temp surfing me the recovering time from pulling a shot to pulling a second shot?  Does it mean from the time you steam to the time you can pull a shot?  Or is that only with a single boiler the heat exchange machine you will not have to temp surf

If I am entertaining and pull 4 double shots ouf ot he machine as well as steam will I have a lot of downtime on any of the machines I have listed?

Posted February 24, 2013 link

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CoffeeRon
Senior Member
CoffeeRon
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 657
Location: Tacoma Wa.
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Wega Lyra, Europiccola(still...
Grinder: K-30 Vario,Pharos, Vario-W,...
Vac Pot: Sunbeam CoffeeMaster
Drip: Melita BCM-4
Roaster: FR SR500,B-1600, SC/TO
Posted Mon Feb 25, 2013, 5:26pm
Subject: Re: 2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
 

Hi Jman,
Thank you for your more detailed and experienced answer to Dapumas question. Would you say, from your experience, that I should do more of a cooling flush than I have been (from the above post)? I've wished many times that I could throw an Erics thermometer on my grouphead- a downfall of a covered machine :(  I know I could piece together an external thermometer but haven't taken the time as yet to do so- maybe someday. So would you say my 5 to 10 seconds is getting me down in the range or should I be doing more? Your opinion would be much appreciated, Ron
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Dapuma
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2013
Posts: 36
Location: Phoenix
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Tue Feb 26, 2013, 4:59pm
Subject: Re: 2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
 

I believe we are going to expand the budget (again lol) and go with the QM67 - the double boiler will get me out of coffee making duty all the time and if i can get out two latte's or capps then wait a minute and get a couple more out that will work out just fine for me

So far it seems like Clive's Coffee has the best deal per se as they will give the unit for 1899 and then the vario grinder for 404, along with no tax or shipping and also a starter kit and a $100 gift card (for cups!)

I really only looked at Clive's / Seattle / and Chris's Coffee as they seemed to be the most reputable of all the places online

Have I missed anything?
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Tue Feb 26, 2013, 5:01pm
Subject: Re: 2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
 

Dapuma Said:

I believe we are going to expand the budget (again lol) and go with the QM67 - the double boiler will get me out of coffee making duty all the time and if i can get out two latte's or capps then wait a minute and get a couple more out that will work out just fine for me

So far it seems like Clive's Coffee has the best deal per se as they will give the unit for 1899 and then the vario grinder for 404, along with no tax or shipping and also a starter kit and a $100 gift card (for cups!)

I really only looked at Clive's / Seattle / and Chris's Coffee as they seemed to be the most reputable of all the places online

Have I missed anything?

Posted February 26, 2013 link

I really like Clive's
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tdifraia
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 78
Location: Boston
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM67
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Bunn
Posted Tue Feb 26, 2013, 5:24pm
Subject: Re: 2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
 

Unless you move at the speed of light, your never going to have to wait between drinks. The recovery time is so fast. I got the exact same set up ... Vario and QM67 and I have only had to wait once between drinks and that was because I tried to steam about 16 oz of milk all at once. I did this so I could make 4 Lattes (4 oz milk / 1.5 oz espresso ea.drink) and it drained my steam pressure and my temps dropped. It took about a minute to recover. I now do my drinks one at a time and never have to wait. I grind, tamp, load, steam my milk, pull my shot, and put the drink together. I backwash inbetween each drink, and warm each cup with about 2 oz of water from the steam boiler. I do this 4x and never have to wait. Im no Professional, but I am getting faster every day. The machine rocks. Every  rning I weigh my first shot for accuracy, top off my tank, and Im off to the races. I have my first drink done just as fast as I used to make my Bunn drip. I have the machine on a timer and its ready to fire up when I rise.

Dapuma Said:

I believe we are going to expand the budget (again lol) and go with the QM67 - the double boiler will get me out of coffee making duty all the time and if i can get out two latte's or capps then wait a minute and get a couple more out that will work out just fine for me

So far it seems like Clive's Coffee has the best deal per se as they will give the unit for 1899 and then the vario grinder for 404, along with no tax or shipping and also a starter kit and a $100 gift card (for cups!)

I really only looked at Clive's / Seattle / and Chris's Coffee as they seemed to be the most reputable of all the places online

Have I missed anything?

Posted February 26, 2013 link

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tdifraia
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 78
Location: Boston
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM67
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Bunn
Posted Tue Feb 26, 2013, 5:47pm
Subject: Re: 2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
 

Theres a store on ebay named zoeys place who was letting the Vario go at $325 ... make him an offer, you got nothing to lose. Thats where I got mine. Brand New ... Newest model also!

Dapuma Said:

the vario grinder for 404, along with no tax or shipping  

I really only looked at Clive's / Seattle / and Chris's Coffee as they seemed to be the most reputable of all the places online

Have I missed anything?

Posted February 26, 2013 link

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Dapuma
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2013
Posts: 36
Location: Phoenix
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:20pm
Subject: Re: 2k budget ideas and Quick Mill Anita vs Andreja Premium
 

Was reading another thread and wasn't sure if this was accurate or not:

The poster stated the Reverse Osmosis water was not usable in an espresso machine or would not have good results for making coffee

Is this accurate?  With the recent move we have a RO system for the first time, and I was going to be using the water in my Zojirushi Hot Water "Maker" (has 3 preset temps for tea, it is awesome) and the espresso machine

The water is pretty good drinking I don't see how it would make bad coffee or tea, but it is something I am not aware of
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