Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 9:21am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
germantownrob Said:
When CC first started selling the Duetto 2 there where some issues that a few delt with. I can imagine that before CC decided to ship the Duetto with one pressure gauge not connected more then a few got the machine and had one gauge not work and water under the machine. There was also so fit and finish issues that some could not live with or was worse on their machine then another. Now there is the Duetto 3 that addressed those earlier potential issues. I can say without a doubt that my Duetto 3 is not as quiet as the GS3's pump which was darn near silent.
Roberto would you say the second machine makes less of that awful noise? The first one sounds terrible but even though I hear it in the second machine it doesn't make me cringe, I am not standing there though. Most importantly I trust my techs, if they said jumping off a bridge would help my machine I would do it and at times I think they practice voodoo to make something big go wrong so I will bring them some BBQ in. Seriously the techs have kept me up and running for years of self repairs with prompt help, I don't think I would have bought a $2500 machine with out them backing me. Seems like you are not getting this kind of service.
The difference here is that the CC Duetto 2 issues were acknowledged and taken care of by the vendor, sounds like that is not the case with Rocket and or R58 vendor.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,043 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 9:55am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
CSME9 Said:
The difference here is that the CC Duetto 2 issues were acknowledged and taken care of by the vendor, sounds like that is not the case with Rocket and or R58 vendor.
Yes, it is called the Duetto 3, lol. I can think of one poster that got one of the first Duetto 2 shipments and was not happy at all with the fit and finish, waited for the second shipment and it was no betterto him, he went with a different machine, problem resolved after a bit of time but not with a Duetto. Even when working with a vendor willing to go the extra mile some things can't be changed.
However to be told by a tech that this is what a rotary sounds like when there is obviously a problem is just wrong.
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 464 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 10:01am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
DavecUK Said:
I don't have an explanation for why 2 machines are like that and I don't need one..... I just know it's not right, I don't know what the problem is, but I DO know it's not right. I have reviewed/tested more than 40 espresso machines over the last 7 years and seen 100s of others. A rotary pump machine should not make that noise. They might rattle, they might rub against a bit of metal, the motor mounts may come loose, but when that happens they don't sound like that.
I think you would be better off simply RMA ing the machine and get something else you're going to have more confidence in......because I suspect you're not ever going to be entirely happy with a Rocket R58 after everything that's happened. The Duetto might be a good start in that respect if you can set aside some of the things you don't like about it. My prototype is nearly 6 years old and no faults yet after 30,000 hours of operation..I also consider it to be a better machine.
Italo2275 Senior Member Joined: 9 Jan 2013 Posts: 96 Location: Toronto Expertise: Just starting
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 10:11am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
I am definitely thinking Alex 3 no matter what the things I do not like. But another problem is that I have not dealers near me, the same guys I got the rocket from are my best bet and I really do not want to go there.
I agree.......if the Rocket man does not want to acknowledge this is an issue that is bad business. Top vendors are not moving his product right now, this is not good for sales or customer confidence. I know 3 people that are ready to buy an R58 but are gun shy right now.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,043 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 10:38am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
Italo2275 Said:
I am definitely thinking Alex 3 no matter what the things I do not like. But another problem is that I have not dealers near me, the same guys I got the rocket from are my best bet and I really do not want to go there.
It may be worth a call to CC to talk with them about the noise, they may be able to confirm a problem and may have a fix. They do still sell the R58 even though others keep pointing out that other places are dropping it, CC does not sell every machine like some vendors and carry what they will personally stand behind so it makes me think the R58 has something they see as worth carrying.
I personally have everything shipped but I know I can drive the 3 hrs each way if I have to. If I moved 2800miles away to the left coast I would still order from CC, but there is no border to cross.
Consider it may not be your vendor that is the problem rather their trust in a tech who seems to not be doing their job proper. I stand by my above statement though that tech is who I deal with the most, sales is a one time conversation for me.
Italo2275 Senior Member Joined: 9 Jan 2013 Posts: 96 Location: Toronto Expertise: Just starting
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:39am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
So the vendor was not very clear as he said that he would replace it with a new one. Now when I went to pick it up the machine was on the floor and out of the new box. The guy told me to keep my utencils and we just swap machines. He said he benchmarked the machine before that is why it was out of the box.
KBO17 Senior Member Joined: 20 Aug 2012 Posts: 6 Location: Montreal Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Rocket R58 Grinder: Compak K3T
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:41am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
I received mine from IDC this past monday. It was purchased from their open box sale. The unit is really in perfect shape and runs as advertised. No unusual pump noise to report. This being said it does sound different when water is pulled to the service boiler, a tad louder, but I think that is normal. When I pull my shots the sound is consistent with what I have heard from the YouTube posts out there and no hissing sound. Although still relatively new I can not say anything negative. The shots are great and the steam is amazing. I get better microfoam using the smaller hole tip supplied with the unit.
One thing that is of slight concern is my pump pressure adjustment knob below is not perpendicular with the base. It does work fine as I adjusted the pressure several times. The pump being rubber mounted may have moved during shipping is what I am told. Should I be concerned?
I'll have more time over the weekend to play with it and report any findings. So far very, very, pleased.
Jmanespresso Senior Member Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 2,108 Location: Westchester NY Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Alex Duetto II Grinder: Compak K10 - Vario Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5 Drip: V60, Beehouse, CCD Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:54am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
Just a comment on the Duetto 2 and 3..
Ive got one of the very last Duetto 2's. The version 3s were already available, and I grabbed one of the last few version 2's Chris Coffee had. If I had a couple hundred more, I would have grabbed the version 3, and I could have simply waited another week or two to get that money together, but I decided I would take the lower price on the Version 2 because, if I was unhappy with it I could return it, and comparing the two side by side in the showroom, as long as my machine was as solid as their showroom machine, I felt I didn't need to get the Version 3. The V3 does however have the drip tray style I prefer.
And I dont regret my purchase at all. MY Duetto, is silent. Just as silent as my Vivaldi was. No rattles or other sounds. In fact, the only sound it does make now and then, is when a little air bubble gets into the feed tube if the reservoir gets a little low. When the bubble goes through the pump there is VROOoom sound. I think this has to do with the fact that there isn't constant positive pressure to the pump. Being plumbed in would solve this "issue". To me, its moot. No harm, not annoying, AND if you keep your reservoir from getting real low, it won't happen anyway.
MY drip tray doesn't need to be arranged properly to fit around the expansion tube. MY grouphead doesnt flex like crazy*. MY steam on the no-burn arm is quite dry.
MY Duetto's case and cup tray fit nicely. Ill admit, if I had a complaint about this machine, it'd be that getting the outer shell back ON after removing it, is tricky. Presumably this is fixed with the Version 3, and that would be my one complaint. But, once you find your ideal pump pressure, you won't be taking the case off very often, if almost ever, anyway. I took it off to put the capillary tube on when I got the machine, and about 2 weeks after I got it, I took the case off again to adjust the pump from 10Bar to 8.75Bar. Both times I ended up getting a second set of hands to help put the case back on. So if I had a complaint, its that. really a non-issue in the long run, but, since we're comparing...
Otherwise Ive got a machine which is in every way the same mechanical machine as the Version 3, with a different aesthetic and a lower price. I couldn't be happier with this machine, it is a joy to use.
*The flex on the version 2's irks me. So much has been said about this, how its a fault of the duetto.. IVe had three E61 machines, ALL of which I could make the grouphead/front panel flex if I cranked the portafilter over hardcore status. On my Anita, if I tried, I could hit the microswitch and engage the pump.
The fact is, most people lock the portafilter in way too hard/far. The handle does not NEED to go over to a specific spot. IF you have a relatively fresh gasket and are using your stock portafilters, and you haven't overfilled the basket, you should be able to lock the portafilter in with one finger. All you need is to make gentle, slightly snug contact with the gasket for the seal to form. Cranking it over any further just wears the gasket out more, and this is where you see the flex. If you NEED to use more force than once finger can provide, something is wrong. If you're using La Marzocco portafilters, its the same thing. MAke sure you have modified them properly, so they lock in without being forced.
I think the reason why flex was a complaint, was because of how many peolpe bought this machine. Ive only noticed flex when I tried to make it flex, and its no different from my two previous quickmill machines. There was only flex when I was trying to make it flex. Under normal operation, the Duetto(and the QMs) are solid as a rock.
Follow Your Bliss
Coffee makes your constantly overcome your prejudices and re-evaluate your own "received wisdoms" when it comes to judging cup flavors. -Tom Owen, SweetMarias
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