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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 9:16pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

I have NEVER known of a problem with flexing of the front panel on any machine in the prosumer bracket...the amount of flexing we are talking about definitely won't cause a problem.  In fact a little flex is preferable to none, because you're not going to get the chance of stress fractures. The front panel issue on all machines is because the steel used to be quite different from the side panels allowing holes to be cut neatly and not using very brittle composition steels that they would use on the case. It's why often the front panel metal used to look a little different. Modern manufacturing techniques, laser cutting etc.. have allowed the gradual change in front panel metals....to something more akin to the metal in the main part of the case. This front panel steel even if thick, is slightly flexible. The manufacturers can then opt to reinforce it.

Posted July 17, 2013 link

Although I totally agree with you about the flexing being somewhat blown out of proportions here, I recall seeing a review of a machine (sorry, can't remember which...) that had some crossbar behind the front panel, so the E61 was bolted to that bar (instead of simply to the panel metal itself). This was really flex-free without the risk of stress fracture.

DavecUK Said:

There are far more important things to consider....which at first glance are not obvious.

Can you drain the boilers
Is the brew boiler too small or too large (Goldilocks range for E61 groups)
Is it reasonably temperature stable
Is it easy and cheap to maintain, is parts availability good, are there lots of aftermarket accessories and alternate parts.
Are then design issues that will cause/prevent faults e.g. component layout, where it vents in the event of a pressure fault etc..
What's the brew boiler made of
Does it steam well
Are the feet height adjustable so I can level the machine
Is it constructed well
Will is clean up well and look just as good in 10 years time
Is the group easy to clean....because your coffee will taste like shit quite quickly if you don't clean group every 3 days
Can I adjust the rotary pump easily and safely without removing the case
Does the PID have proper separate channels for brewing and steaming with their own parameters (currently the Vetrano is the only machine with this)
Do I/you like the look of it.
Can the steam boiler be switched off and is it big enough to steam well, but not too big to make warm up times too slow.
How is the pump orientated, because inverted as in the Vetrano is absolutely the best.

Posted July 17, 2013 link

Amen to that checklist!

BTW:
  1. "Goldilocks range for E61" -- what is that term?
  2. I was actually quite surprised to read about the double-function PID (I thought it was a mistake at first); are you sure the V2B is the only machine with that feature?
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Rhinoevans
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 179
Location: Las Vegas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale S1, Starbucks...
Grinder: Rocky DL
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: N/A
Roaster: N/A
Posted Thu Jul 18, 2013, 1:14am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Here is some doc from the QM67.  Hope it helps

Rhinoevans: photo3.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,417
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Jul 18, 2013, 3:57am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

JaniceAnn Said:

Thanks,  Dave!

You addressed all my  concerns.

I have only one more thing I would like to ask   Would you recommend using the 8mm soft gasket instead of the 8.5mm soft gasket or would it make any difference?  I am asking because my husband has arthritis in his hands and wrists and I want to make it as easy as possible for him to be able to lock the portafilter in with light pressure.

Your help has been invaluable to me.   My huband said to tell you thanks for him too.

Posted July 17, 2013 link

If you are in the USA, my understanding is that CC will be using the softer gaskets, so you shouldn't have a problem. The gaskets the manufacturers generally use are a "nominal" 8 mm, but actually 8.3mm, the gasket I have specified for the UKCC has is an exact 8mm and softer.

As for lock in pressure...you can use the lightest of touches when the gaskets are new, then a pressure like tapping an angel on the shoulder as they age, followed by an angels handhold when they are older. After 3-6 months you may have to use the same pressure as that when combing your hair....no more. If your husband has arthritis, it shouldn't be a problem, but if it is, load the portafilter and then use light pressure the back of the wrist for the final lock in.

For other posters...wanting a little more explanation:

the Goldilocks range for a brew boiler supplying an E61 covers a few things, but is mainly about boiler size 650-850ml is the Goldlilocks range.....not too large and not too small. The thermosyphon layout, entry and exit points are also important.

The PID comment re separate channels.... those that have read my posts over the years will know I considered the addition of steam boiler control into the PID to have been a retrograde step on later Duetto models, the pressurestat working much better in a steam boiler. read this article I wrote out of pure frustration a year ago:

Click Here (coffeetime.wikidot.com)

The PID that is now on my Vetrano DB machine has a "proper" dual PID loop implementation, it looks like the normal Gicar PID (but it's not), but it has been specially reprogrammed and works differently to all the others on the market. I initially had the normal PID and later received this version and it improved steaming by at least 17%!
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CSME9
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CSME9
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 278
Location: West Texas
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Mitica Top, Spaz...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: Moka Pot
Roaster: BBQ Roaster
Posted Thu Jul 18, 2013, 5:29am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

If you are in the USA, my understanding is that CC will be using the softer gaskets, so you shouldn't have a problem. The gaskets the manufacturers generally use are a "nominal" 8 mm, but actually 8.3mm, the gasket I have specified for the UKCC has is an exact 8mm and softer.

As for lock in pressure...you can use the lightest of touches when the gaskets are new, then a pressure like tapping an angel on the shoulder as they age, followed by an angels handhold when they are older. After 3-6 months you may have to use the same pressure as that when combing your hair....no more. If your husband has arthritis, it shouldn't be a problem, but if it is, load the portafilter and then use light pressure the back of the wrist for the final lock in.

For other posters...wanting a little more explanation:

the Goldilocks range for a brew boiler supplying an E61 covers a few things, but is mainly about boiler size 650-850ml is the Goldlilocks range.....not too large and not too small. The thermosyphon layout, entry and exit points are also important.

The PID comment re separate channels.... those that have read my posts over the years will know I considered the addition of steam boiler control into the PID to have been a retrograde step on later Duetto models, the pressurestat working much better in a steam boiler. read this article I wrote out of pure frustration a year ago:

Click Here (coffeetime.wikidot.com)

The PID that is now on my Vetrano DB machine has a "proper" dual PID loop implementation, it looks like the normal Gicar PID (but it's not), but it has been specially reprogrammed and works differently to all the others on the market. I initially had the normal PID and later received this version and it improved steaming by at least 17%!

Posted July 18, 2013 link


Dave, So if I read correctly a steam pressure stat controller on a PID double boiler produces a more aggressive full on steaming, this sounds like the setup used in the VBM, and Expobar Brewtus models.
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Thu Jul 18, 2013, 6:16am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CSME9 Said:

Dave, So if I read correctly a steam pressure stat controller on a PID double boiler produces a more aggressive full on steaming, this sounds like the setup used in the VBM, and Expobar Brewtus models.

Posted July 18, 2013 link

It's either/or. If you have a Pstat on the steam boiler (like the Vibiemme) you don't have PID that controls it; if you have a PID on the boiler, you don't have the Pstat. The V2B does not have Pstat (see Mary's video, about 1:45 min.)

EDIT: I think my "either/or" statement above is incorrect (as far as "design guidelines"); If Dave is right in saying that the V2B is the first machine to have that dual-PID feature, than there's no precedence which indicates guidelines. Either way, the fact that the V2B does not have Pstat is still true.
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CSME9
Senior Member
CSME9
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 278
Location: West Texas
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Mitica Top, Spaz...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: Moka Pot
Roaster: BBQ Roaster
Posted Thu Jul 18, 2013, 7:31am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Zevi Said:

It's either/or. If you have a Pstat on the steam boiler (like the Vibiemme) you don't have PID that controls it; if you have a PID on the boiler, you don't have the Pstat. The V2B does not have Pstat (see Mary's video, about 1:45 min.)

EDIT: I think my "either/or" statement above is incorrect (as far as "design guidelines"); If Dave is right in saying that the V2B is the first machine to have that dual-PID feature, than there's no precedence which indicates guidelines. Either way, the fact that the V2B does not have Pstat is still true.

Posted July 18, 2013 link

Yes i agree with the CCS machines Dual PID setup which is typical of other machines like the Duetto or QM 67, but sounds like Dave has upgraded his model with some sort of dedicated independant steam PID setup, i wonder if it was avail on the US test machine ?
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Thu Jul 18, 2013, 9:11am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Thanks for the responses DavecUK and Zevi. Between Dave's never having heard of flexing leading to major problems (and he's clearly been testing these machines for many years) and Zevi's scientific explanation of stainless steel's fatigue limit (which I'm going to take on faith, I'm no engineer), that seems to pretty much ensure that the V2B will provide many years of wonderful service.

A special thanks to Dave for that checklist. It is similar, and more demanding, than the one I was mentally keeping, so if the V2B ticks off all of those boxes for him, then that's good enough for me.
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,417
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Jul 18, 2013, 11:36am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CSME9 Said:

Yes i agree with the CCS machines Dual PID setup which is typical of other machines like the Duetto or QM 67, but sounds like Dave has upgraded his model with some sort of dedicated independent steam PID setup, i wonder if it was avail on the US test machine ?

Posted July 18, 2013 link

Chris US machine has the same specially programmed PID and all production models worldwide will have it as well. This was a change made a week or so after I got the prototype machine and I changed out the PID for the re-programmed version...it was a straight swap, so it only took a few minutes for me to do. The Vetrano specific PID gives a similar response to a pressurestat for the steam boiler whilst maintaining the correct style of PID response for the brew boiler
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cuznvin
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Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Thu Jul 18, 2013, 2:39pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

My machine is preordered!! Now the wait.......
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bmorton
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Posts: 33
Location: Brooklyn
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quickmill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Mazzer SJ
Posted Thu Jul 18, 2013, 3:00pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Same here...
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