Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Espresso Machines
Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
The Coffee Project
Home coffee Roasting equipment, green beans, and supplies
www.coffeeproject.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Alex Duetto 3...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 2 of 4 first page | last page previous page | next page
Author Messages
DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Apr 3, 2013, 8:55am
Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
 

Here is what to do and questions to answer:

  1. Check your offset using my method.... Click Here (coffeetime.wikidot.com) and tell us what it is
  2. What temperature are you setting for the extraction
  3. Have you checked with the roaster for blend changes, new batch of green beans now being roasted, tried other beans, tried a different roaster
  4. Portafilter loaded each time
  5. Cleaning behind shower screen regularly (every 3 days (it's in the coffeetime wiki).
  6. Extraction times and volumes (liquid+crema), single or double basket.
  7. Using naked portafilter or not
  8. Temperature of the group measured at the group gasket, plus how long can you touch the round part of the group for
  9. Is there any delay between lifting the lever and water coming out of the shower screen
  10. I always flush a 1oz (30 ml) stabilisation flush, this ensures ALL shots start from the same starting conditions (or as near as possible).....normalisation. It has the addded advantage of telling you if your shower screen needs a clean (if used to warm a  cup that is white inside.
  11. What water are you using (be precise).

Plus any other information you can think of. The one thing I am lacking at the moment is enough information to visualise the problem
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Italo2275
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Toronto
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Apr 3, 2013, 12:34pm
Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
 

DavecUK Said:

Here is what to do and questions to answer:

Check your offset using my method.... Click Here (coffeetime.wikidot.com) and tell us what it is
-  Not sure how to do this? here is a video of when i turn the leaver on, i had the temp at 198 for a test i did. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtyFA5kIo-Y

What temperature are you setting for the extraction
-  I use the temperature that is reccomended for the coffee as low as 198 all the way to 204

Have you checked with the roaster for blend changes, new batch of green beans now being roasted, tried other beans, tried a different roaster
-  Yes I have tried 2 roasters and asked them.

Portafilter loaded each time
-  I use the double basket and botomless.

Cleaning behind shower screen regularly (every 3 days (it's in the coffeetime wiki).
-  yes I clean every other day.

Extraction times and volumes (liquid+crema), single or double basket.
-  I aim for 25 to 30 sec for 2 oz

Using naked portafilter or not
-  I do use it and works well, I have had the occasional time where water was squrting from the sides, not sure wht that happens. I make sure my tamping is ok.

Temperature of the group measured at the group gasket, plus how long can you touch the round part of the group for
-  The grouphead is hot I cannot touch it quickly but not keep my hand there.

Is there any delay between lifting the lever and water coming out of the shower screen
-  Maybe half second

I always flush a 1oz (30 ml) stabilisation flush, this ensures ALL shots start from the same starting conditions (or as near as possible).....normalisation. It has the addded advantage of telling you if your shower screen needs a clean (if used to warm a  cup that is white inside.
-  yup I do that as well

What water are you using (be precise).
-  I use tap water and I have tested with the stick that the machine came with and it is normal

Plus any other information you can think of. The one thing I am lacking at the moment is enough information to visualise the problem

Posted April 3, 2013 link

back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CSME9
Senior Member
CSME9
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 291
Location: West Texas
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Mitica Top, Spaz...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: Moka Pot
Roaster: BBQ Roaster
Posted Wed Apr 3, 2013, 5:06pm
Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
 

Italo2275 Said:

Hi Guys,
So I am still trying to figure this coffee stuff out and find out if I am the issue, my machine or my grinder.
Currently my machine is running on 20 amps and it is using the water tank.
I have used several types of coffee from fresh to ones that are vacume sealed. I found that with fresh coffee I cannot get a thick cream when pulling 2 one OZ shots.
Having said all that I was looking at my temp and I had set it to 201 but as I am puppling the shot it kept going down to 195,, is this normal?

Posted April 2, 2013 link

The duetto steam boiler feeds hot water to the brew boiler, so if you turn of the steam boiler the brew temps can drop 3-4 deg.

I think i read (please correct me if wrong) the r58 uses two independant boilers which if you turn off the steam boiler it does not effect the brew boiler.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Apr 4, 2013, 4:43am
Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
 

CSME9 Said:

The duetto steam boiler feeds hot water to the brew boiler, so if you turn of the steam boiler the brew temps can drop 3-4 deg.

I think i read (please correct me if wrong) the r58 uses two independent boilers which if you turn off the steam boiler it does not effect the brew boiler.

Posted April 3, 2013 link

You are right, you have a smaller brew boiler than the Duetto and you get bigger temperature variances. Back to the Duetto temperature issue.

You really must double check your offset using my method.

Also try higher temperatures for extraction, as you have no idea what temperature the Rocket may actually have been at. Higher temperatures can often produce thicker darker crema.

It might also be worth ensuring the brew pressure is 9 bar against a blind filter.

As far as the groups and pumps go, it apples for apples, no real difference, so your shot difference can only be Temperature or Pressure related and this is the area where a like for like comparison is probably not being made (assuming everything else has not changed). You can't assume the Rocket was right, alternatively, you should not assume the Duettos offset is right. Don't be confused by the "red herring" from the quotation above, the rocket not having preheat doesn't make it better. Preheat with the Duetto doesn't drop the brew temperatures when you turn it off, it simply affects the "capacity" of the machine. So that shot after shot after shot will not cause the boiler temperatures to drop and you simply never have to wait. In fact the boiler is more stable, but only in terms of being able to pull doubles as fast as you can make them. Whatever small fluctuation you see in the brew boiler is more than made up for in the heat capacity of the group on a normal use basis, and does not require the steam boiler to be on.

The only change I think they have made with the Dual PID (which I don't have), is I think it pulses the brew boiler heating element even if the steam boiler isn't turned on. By this I mean timed pulses other than that the PID is making for temperature maintenance....the 15 amp pulses if you like.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Italo2275
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Toronto
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Thu Apr 4, 2013, 6:14am
Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
 

Hi Dave,
I want to check the Offset and I read the article but I am a bit stupid in understanding how to do this. I tried to raise the temp but do not see This ( flashes off to steam)
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Apr 4, 2013, 8:12pm
Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
 

It's simple you keep raising the temp 1 F and waiting 5 minutes until it starts to flash off to steam and water as it exits the group. You then have to back off the temp, this time slower about 1 f every 10 minutes until the flashing off to steam/water just stops. This is probably the point at which the group water is 99-100C (boiling point (adjust for height above sea level). Whatever the PID displays, adjust the offset until the PID displays 211F.

With each 1 F temp raise you of course flush 1-2 oz from the group to check for flashing to steam.

After this your offset will be correct and you can at least start with known brew temperatures.

P.S. Obviously to save time start about 4F under boiling, wait 15 minutes for the temp to stabilise, check it's not already flashing off to steam and then start raising it from there.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Italo2275
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Toronto
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri Apr 5, 2013, 3:54pm
Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
 

ok Here is my testing and on the way I noticed some weird fluctuations for example having set my temp to 211F and the reading was 216F.
Here are my current PID settinds
F.02 is set to 5 as I am running 20 amp mode
P 1.3
I .06
D 1.5
There is no F4 in the Alex 3 so E1 which is the offset is set to 18.

Here is my test, my machine started to flash at 211 F I went one F down and waited 10 min in between it stopped flashing at 206F. So now what? How do I calibrate the ofset in the PID?
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Apr 5, 2013, 7:49pm
Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
 

Italo2275 Said:

ok Here is my testing and on the way I noticed some weird fluctuations for example having set my temp to 211F and the reading was 216F.
Here are my current PID settinds
F.02 is set to 5 as I am running 20 amp mode
P 1.3
I .06
D 1.5
There is no F4 in the Alex 3 so E1 which is the offset is set to 18.

Here is my test, my machine started to flash at 211 F I went one F down and waited 10 min in between it stopped flashing at 206F. So now what? How do I calibrate the ofset in the PID?

Posted April 5, 2013 link

If you have done the test correctly, this means 206F displayed is 211F actual at the group, so you want to adjust your offset until you get 211 shown in the display. However I believe this may not be right. If you lower the offset by 5F, then you will be running an offset of 13F which doesn't sound right to me. There is a 9 or 10C variance between the boiler displayed temp and that of the water exiting the group (hence the offset of 18). Nothing has significantly changed in the design to alter this.

Your results so far would suggest your machine is running higher brew water temps than the ones your setting (by about 5F), this would generally result in a dark crema and/or a promoumced dark ring and a harsh bitter shot.

Repeat the test carefully, when you get to 211, let the machine stabilise for 15 minutes then push the temperature up 1f with a 10 min wait. If indeed your machine is that far out and the offset really is 13F, then I'm still suspicious, perhaps the PID isn''t reading right. I must admit, these are not the results are expected and you need to be sure the test has been done correctly and that you are adjusting for height above sea level.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Italo2275
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Toronto
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Apr 6, 2013, 4:50am
Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
 

I will try the test and make a video of it.
Maybe this is the reason why I cannot pull a good shot.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Italo2275
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Toronto
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Apr 6, 2013, 5:30am
Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3 temperature drop
 

Dave,
If The test I fif before are correct then I should start at 206f ( should be no flash) then wait 5 min and increase to 207, if correct I should see a flash correct?
If I recall when I did the test I started at 208 and did not see a flash till 212 or so.what could the issue be? why did the water keep flashing when I went down in temp and stop at 206? When on the way up it started to flash at212? I did make sure that I waited 10 min between changes.
As I said I will video it an post it.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 2 of 4 first page | last page previous page | next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Alex Duetto 3...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Home Espresso Machines
Watch videos with Gail & Kat, Rocket, Jura Capresso, Saeco, Rancilio, Quick Mill, Nespresso
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.441083192825)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+