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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Having hard time...  
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Thu Apr 18, 2013, 1:01pm
Subject: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

Greetings!

Executive Summary: I'm considering the Mini Vivaldi II or the QuickMill QM67, coupled with the Baratza Vario.

Although I found some great information about people's experience in this Dream/Mini thread, and some very useful reports of QM67 users (e.g., this post), and some comparisons to the Brewtus, I have not found much info about people's experience and "decision path" involving the Mini Vivaldi vs. the QM67.

Some of my consideration points:
  • I'm looking at the non-plumed 15A version.
  • (I think) I want to have pre-infusion.
  • (I think) I like the new features of the Dream, but it looks to me too "toy-ish" with the new "shield" panel.
  • I really like the looks of the E61.
  • I'm concerned that it will be difficult to keep that look shiny and it will soon turn to a splatter-covered mess...
  • Will I miss having a variable valve for steam (with the "instant-on" lever) on the vivaldi?
  • Using the steam wand of the QM67 seems "less cramped" than with the Vivaldi; is that only my imagination?
  • In SCG video they commented about the steam wand "bumping" against the gauge; is it a bothering issue?
  • Pressure gauges: I prefer individual gauges, and videos show the Vivaldi needles moving quite erratically and vibrating; something to be concerned with?
  • Is the 53 vs. 58mm an issue? (from what I read it is not, but did it play any role in your "thinking"?)
  • Front-flexing of the QM67 when tightening the PF: looks pretty significant on some videos (e.g., this one from Chris - is he just over-tightening it? What's your experience?

I would really appreciate hearing from people who considered these two machines or better yet -- had or used them both. What made you decide one way or the other? Any second thoughts about the decision? Any good or bad "discoveries" after you bought the machine?

Many thanks in advance,
Zevi
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Thu Apr 18, 2013, 1:11pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

Oh, yes (I knew I forgot something...):  Why do I want to buy this if I can buy something like this?

Thanks,
Zevi
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__________
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 907
Location: .
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Machine now fixed ;o)
Grinder: None
Vac Pot: None
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Thu Apr 18, 2013, 3:40pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

Zevi Said:

Oh, yes (I knew I forgot something...):  Why do I want to buy this if I can buy something like this?

Thanks,
Zevi

Posted April 18, 2013 link

I'm not in the US. I use a simple 230v timer similar to the second one you link to and it works perfectly. But my machine isn't a Vivaldi II.  I don't think it will work with Vivaldi II.  The first one will.

(Hint - from what I've read, you can't switch on a Vivaldi II simply by applying power.  You have to press a button to fire it up.)
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Thu Apr 18, 2013, 5:49pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

__________ Said:

(Hint - from what I've read, you can't switch on a Vivaldi II simply by applying power.  You have to press a button to fire it up.)

Posted April 18, 2013 link

A-Ha! That make sense why you need that expensive timer. Bummer -- I'll have to account for the extra almost $200... :-(

Thanks,
Zevi.
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SSgt93
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Apr 2013
Posts: 56
Location: USA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Thu Apr 18, 2013, 7:28pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

There are a ton of threads on here where your answers are awaiting you.
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__________
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 907
Location: .
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Machine now fixed ;o)
Grinder: None
Vac Pot: None
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 2:28am
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

You could always try to find a steampunk enthusiast to make you an automated "finger"  :o)
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 6:25am
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

__________ Said:

You could always try to find a steampunk enthusiast to make you an automated "finger"  :o)

Posted April 19, 2013 link

?
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 6:27am
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

SSgt93 Said:

There are a ton of threads on here where your answers are awaiting you.

Posted April 18, 2013 link

Well, obviously from my OP -- I did not find them or did not get the info I was seeking. If you know of any -- a link would be appreciated.
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,433
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 6:54am
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

Zevi Said:

Greetings!

Executive Summary: I'm considering the Mini Vivaldi II or the QuickMill QM67, coupled with the Baratza Vario.

Although I found some great information about people's experience in this Dream/Mini thread, and some very useful reports of QM67 users (e.g., this post), and some comparisons to the Brewtus, I have not found much info about people's experience and "decision path" involving the Mini Vivaldi vs. the QM67.

Some of my consideration points:
I'm looking at the non-plumed 15A version.
(I think) I want to have pre-infusion.
(I think) I like the new features of the Dream, but it looks to me too "toy-ish" with the new "shield" panel.
I really like the looks of the E61.
I'm concerned that it will be difficult to keep that look shiny and it will soon turn to a splatter-covered mess...
Will I miss having a variable valve for steam (with the "instant-on" lever) on the vivaldi?
Using the steam wand of the QM67 seems "less cramped" than with the Vivaldi; is that only my imagination?
In SCG video they commented about the steam wand "bumping" against the gauge; is it a bothering issue?
Pressure gauges: I prefer individual gauges, and videos show the Vivaldi needles moving quite erratically and vibrating; something to be concerned with?
Is the 53 vs. 58mm an issue? (from what I read it is not, but did it play any role in your "thinking"?)
Front-flexing of the QM67 when tightening the PF: looks pretty significant on some videos (e.g., this one from Chris - is he just over-tightening it? What's your experience?

I would really appreciate hearing from people who considered these two machines or better yet -- had or used them both. What made you decide one way or the other? Any second thoughts about the decision? Any good or bad "discoveries" after you bought the machine?

Many thanks in advance,
Zevi

Posted April 18, 2013 link

Lets try and help a little.

(I think) I want to have pre-infusion. - Luckily the E61 has that built in

(I think) I like the new features of the Dream, but it looks to me too "toy-ish" with the new "shield" panel. - Well if you only think you like it, it's probably not adding much except cost and complexity, bet its expensive to replace if it goes wrong. At least when a gauge fails you can continue to use the machine and they are, very cheap to replace and easy to read.

I really like the looks of the E61 - so do I, but if we get a little less superficial, it's really easy to maintain, has good temperature stability, uses standard parts, has a very easy to clean shower screen area (unlike the vivaldi). Plus theres plenty of cheap aftermarket accessories available for that absolutely standard 58mm size. They have proven the test of time and last for ever.

I'm concerned that it will be difficult to keep that look shiny and it will soon turn to a splatter-covered mess... - presumably you are talking about stainless steel machines in general. Well they do show marks, but when you clean them, the reward is a mchine that looks like new, year after year...even 10 years later, if cleaned correctly, they will still clean up like new. Other machines with lots of plastic will date, but the retro steel machines will always look good, as proof, they have been looking good for more than 30 years.

Will I miss having a variable valve for steam (with the "instant-on" lever) on the vivaldi? - no, unless your working in a busy cafe, which is the only reason to have them.

Using the steam wand of the QM67 seems "less cramped" than with the Vivaldi; is that only my imagination? - probably not

Is the 53 vs. 58mm an issue? (from what I read it is not, but did it play any role in your "thinking"?) - well there is more stuff for 58mm and at a better price, but I also believe the extraction is better from a 58mm than a 53mm, because of the depth of the puck and the tendency to over extract the top of the puck when comparing to a 58mm. This means you will get a slightly harsher show, with a little more bitterness. Unfortunately, it's more forgiving of poor technique in terms of not getting gushers, so people think that makes it better, but it doesn't. it's why I don't ever pull triples using an E61 and triple basket....I have them, but they are a misconceived idea

Front-flexing of the QM67 when tightening the PF: looks pretty significant on some videos (e.g., this one from Chris - is he just over-tightening it? What's your experience? - a little with the 8.5mm gasket they provide, but replace it with an 8mm gasket and suddenly the portafilter locks in easy (no flexing) and sits straight too, not at the 7:30 position.

Specifically for the Vivaldi, how are you going to descale it?, last time I looked, they use a solenoid valve for the hot water tap, this means you can't operate it when the machine is not switched on, this makes it very difficult to empty the steam boiler. If it's the same formed steel boiler they have used for years, then it has no drain hole. Even worse they were using a preformed steel boiler with the heating element welded in last time I looked If they still are, when the heating element fails (note I say when, not if), you need a new steam boiler (along with the hassle of fitting it, how much will that cost and will those boilers even be available in 10 years!!


really though you might want to consider some less superficial issues:

  1. Does it make good coffee
  2. Ease of maintenance, you will have it a long time, is it easy and cheap to maintain are spares readily available or do they use a lot of bespoke parts.
  3. Does the machine have a very specific look with limited appeal, or does it have a more timeless look with wider appeal, should you ever wish to sell it.
  4. Does the manufacturers main interest lie in the commercial line or the prosumer line
  5. How good will the after sales support be, because all these machines have a bought out warranty
  6. What features do you really need e.g. volumetric dosing is more a commercial feature (press and forget), but not so useful in the domestic environment, in fact, it's not useful at all, so much so that most people manually control the shot on volumetric machines, so they can stop it if they see blonding.


Regards

Dave
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 7:12am
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

DavecUK Said:

Lets try and help a little.

(I think) I want to have pre-infusion. - Luckily the E61 has that built in

(I think) I like the new features of the Dream, but it looks to me too "toy-ish" with the new "shield" panel. - Well if you only think you like it, it's probably not adding much except cost and complexity, bet its expensive to replace if it goes wrong. At least when a gauge fails you can continue to use the machine and they are, very cheap to replace and easy to read.

I really like the looks of the E61 - so do I, but if we get a little less superficial, it's really easy to maintain, has good temperature stability, uses standard parts, has a very easy to clean shower screen area (unlike the vivaldi). Plus theres plenty of cheap aftermarket accessories available for that absolutely standard 58mm size. They have proven the test of time and last for ever.

I'm concerned that it will be difficult to keep that look shiny and it will soon turn to a splatter-covered mess... - presumably you are talking about stainless steel machines in general. Well they do show marks, but when you clean them, the reward is a mchine that looks like new, year after year...even 10 years later, if cleaned correctly, they will still clean up like new. Other machines with lots of plastic will date, but the retro steel machines will always look good, as proof, they have been looking good for more than 30 years.

Will I miss having a variable valve for steam (with the "instant-on" lever) on the vivaldi? - no, unless your working in a busy cafe, which is the only reason to have them.

Using the steam wand of the QM67 seems "less cramped" than with the Vivaldi; is that only my imagination? - probably not

Is the 53 vs. 58mm an issue? (from what I read it is not, but did it play any role in your "thinking"?) - well there is more stuff for 58mm and at a better price, but I also believe the extraction is better from a 58mm than a 53mm, because of the depth of the puck and the tendency to over extract the top of the puck when comparing to a 58mm. This means you will get a slightly harsher show, with a little more bitterness. Unfortunately, it's more forgiving of poor technique in terms of not getting gushers, so people think that makes it better, but it doesn't. it's why I don't ever pull triples using an E61 and triple basket....I have them, but they are a misconceived idea

Posted April 19, 2013 link

Front-flexing of the QM67 when tightening the PF: looks pretty significant on some videos (e.g., this one from Chris - is he just over-tightening it? What's your experience? - a little with the 8.5mm gasket they provide, but replace it with an 8mm gasket and suddenly the portafilter locks in easy (no flexing) and sits straight too, not at the 7:30 position.

Specifically for the Vivaldi, how are you going to descale it?, last time I looked, they use a solenoid valve for the hot water tap, this means you can't operate it when the machine is not switched on, this makes it very difficult to empty the steam boiler. If it's the same formed steel boiler they have used for years, then it has no drain hole. Even worse they were using a preformed steel boiler with the heating element welded in last time I looked If they still are, when the heating element fails (note I say when, not if), you need a new steam boiler (along with the hassle of fitting it, how much will that cost and will those boilers even be available in 10 years!!


really though you might want to consider some less superficial issues:

Does it make good coffee
Ease of maintenance, you will have it a long time, is it easy and cheap to maintain are spares readily available or do they use a lot of bespoke parts.
Does the machine have a very specific look with limited appeal, or does it have a more timeless look with wider appeal, should you ever wish to sell it.
Does the manufacturers main interest lie in the commercial line or the prosumer line
How good will the after sales support be, because all these machines have a bought out warranty
What features do you really need e.g. volumetric dosing is more a commercial feature (press and forget), but not so useful in the domestic environment, in fact, it's not useful at all, so much so that most people manually control the shot on volumetric machines, so they can stop it if they see blonding.


Regards

Dave

Very helpful post Dave!! Helps lead me to which machines I should consider..
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