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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 8:37am
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

Dave, many thanks for your detailed response!

pre-infusion ... the E61 has that built in
My understanding is that you do it by partially moving the handle up -- is the "pre-infusion point" clearly detectable (indentation?), or you have to guess?

... Well if you only think you like it, it's probably not adding much except cost and complexity
Good point. I said "think" only because I have not used this machine. Only someone who used it can say how significant (or not) certain features are to the operation/quality.

Front-flexing of the QM67... replace it with an 8mm gasket and suddenly the portafilter locks in easy (no flexing) and sits straight too, not at the 7:30 position
Are these standard, easy to get replacements? Interesting, but pictures of the QM67 on Clive and CCS show the handle at 5:00, not 7:00 position.


really though you might want to consider some less superficial issues

Absolutely. And I am considering these. But at the same time we all know that looks & features are very important. Given your evaluation of the Vetrano 2B: would you say that it's the espresso quality, or the better looks (maybe more features?) that separate it from the QM67?

I think that from what I read I can conclude/assume that:
Does it make good coffee  I'm quite convinced that if I draw lousy shots from either of these machine it's due to an operator error...

Ease of maintenance, you will have it a long time, is it easy and cheap to maintain My assumption is that both of these machines have along and reputable history, and places like CCS or Clive will always be able to maintain them. Am I wrong?

Does the machine have a very specific look with limited appeal, or does it have a more timeless look with wider appeal, should you ever wish to sell it. Yes, a valid point. However, my approach is that if I keep the machine long enough, it's more important that I like the looks; the resale value is realy a distant second.

Does the manufacturers main interest lie in the commercial line or the prosumer line. Hmmm, not sure how to "translate" this into a pro/con consideration. I think La Spaziale is more commercial -- does that mean that as a consumer QuickMill is better for me?

... volumetric dosing  ...  in the domestic environment ... not useful at all ... I can definitely see the benefits for manual, rather volumetric extraction. In fact, one review video mentioned that as a drawback of the Vivaldi. This is definitely something I was hoping to hear about from users who had this consideration as part of their decision process, or better yet -- those who were exposed to both machines.

Again - thanks for your well thought-out and helpful response!

Cheers,
Zevi
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,326
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 9:44am
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

I looked at that Video, if that's the standard portafilter and the factory fitted gasket....yeah, you would have to pull it pretty hard to lock it in at the 6:00 position. With an 8mm gasket, it will be hugely better. I have been banging on about 8mm gaskets to the manufacturers for years, but they seem to be on a bloody mission to provide 8.5mm ones. I once had one say to me that it prevent the portafilter tightening past 6:00 over time, or lasting longer before leaking. This is cobblers, because you should have replaced it long before then. The gaskets are so cheap ad I am constantly amazed about posts where people have to dig em out after 3 years....mind boggling. I change mine as soon as they become too hard. In an HX machine this can be as little as 6-9 months depending on usage, on a dual boiler a little longer......New gaskets also feel MUCH nicer and don't have to be locked in so hard to prevent them leaking. (hopefully Chris will read this in a positive light and perhaps ask for 8mm gaskets, because I have seen many comments on here about that particular video and the group head flexing).

Also people should do this...it gives better coffee and the gaskets never stick, if they start falling out after 9 months...guess what, it was time to change it. My vioew is the resellers should sell group gaskets in packs of 3 or 5 and encourage their customers to change them a LOT more often that they do!

Click Here (coffeetime.wikidot.com)

I do the above a LOT more often and backflush, much, much less nowadays. Perhaps once every 3-6 months for backflushing....depending on use and then always lubricate the group cams immediately after backflushing.

P.S. I practise what I preach, because I have a pack of 20 or 30 group gaskets at home and probably change them every 6 months on my Duetto (even though they might last almost twice as long, if you pushed it), just love the butter smooth, springy feel of a new gasket.
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RichardCoffee
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Dec 2010
Posts: 108
Location: Long Beach
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: gaggia baby twin, mini...
Grinder: fiorenzato pietro 63mm,...
Roaster: weber grill with rk drum
Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 1:02pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

I reckon you have your heart set on stainless steel and the E61 group head.  Still, I thought I'd chime in with another point of view. I have a mini Vivaldi and I really like it - it's easy to fill with water, easy to drain the very generous drip tray (I always do these 2 things at the same time and it takes a minute at most - with no spills).  The screens are very easy to keep clean.  At first I wasn't sure how I'd like the on/off function of the steam lever.  I think I was influenced by the fact that the plumb in Vivaldi has a knob.  But, I love the lever - very easy to work and plenty of room.  I have the preinfusion option with mine - I don't know if it makes a difference or not, but I'm very satisfied with the shots I get. The mini comes with a drain on the steam boiler.  As for the 53 vs 58, I have come accustomed to the 53.  I was biased against it in the beginning but, I really like this machine.  There are different opinions about which is easier and which makes better shots.  Some say the 53 shots are more like a triple basket with a 58 since they are deeper.  I think as long as you have a good grinder, either will be satisfactory.  
Finally, you might want to spend some time perusing posts at S1cafe.com.  Lots of info there - mostly from satisfied owners of the Vivaldis.
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 1:12pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

RichardCoffee Said:

I reckon you have your heart set on stainless steel and the E61 group head.  Still, I thought I'd chime in with another point of view. I have a mini Vivaldi and I really like it - it's easy to fill with water, easy to drain the very generous drip tray (I always do these 2 things at the same time and it takes a minute at most - with no spills).  The screens are very easy to keep clean.  At first I wasn't sure how I'd like the on/off function of the steam lever.  I think I was influenced by the fact that the plumb in Vivaldi has a knob.  But, I love the lever - very easy to work and plenty of room.  I have the preinfusion option with mine - I don't know if it makes a difference or not, but I'm very satisfied with the shots I get. The mini comes with a drain on the steam boiler.  As for the 53 vs 58, I have come accustomed to the 53.  I was biased against it in the beginning but, I really like this machine.  There are different opinions about which is easier and which makes better shots.  Some say the 53 shots are more like a triple basket with a 58 since they are deeper.  I think as long as you have a good grinder, either will be satisfactory.  
Finally, you might want to spend some time perusing posts at S1cafe.com.  Lots of info there - mostly from satisfied owners of the Vivaldis.

Posted April 19, 2013 link

Thanks. I just have to go with Dave's opinions. He has reviewed many machines and seems to give his honest opinion..
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 1:56pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

RichardCoffee Said:

I reckon you have your heart set on stainless steel and the E61 group head.  Still, I thought I'd chime in with another point of view. I have a mini Vivaldi and I really like it - it's easy to fill with water, easy to drain the very generous drip tray (I always do these 2 things at the same time and it takes a minute at most - with no spills).  The screens are very easy to keep clean.  At first I wasn't sure how I'd like the on/off function of the steam lever.  I think I was influenced by the fact that the plumb in Vivaldi has a knob.  But, I love the lever - very easy to work and plenty of room.  I have the preinfusion option with mine - I don't know if it makes a difference or not, but I'm very satisfied with the shots I get. The mini comes with a drain on the steam boiler.  As for the 53 vs 58, I have come accustomed to the 53.  I was biased against it in the beginning but, I really like this machine.  There are different opinions about which is easier and which makes better shots.  Some say the 53 shots are more like a triple basket with a 58 since they are deeper.  I think as long as you have a good grinder, either will be satisfactory.  
Finally, you might want to spend some time perusing posts at S1cafe.com.  Lots of info there - mostly from satisfied owners of the Vivaldis.

Posted April 19, 2013 link

Richard -- thanks for this very valuable input. I appreciate this kind of user feedback!  I wouldn't say that my heart is set on the stainless E61 (if I did, I would not be seriously considering the Vivaldi). Yes, I really like how it looks, but I was also wondering what it takes, if possible, to keep that spiffy showroom look under normal operating conditions. An an engineer, I totally see and understand Dave's (and other users) logic that prefers the 58 mm: a more uniform exposure of the coffee to the hot water as it does not have to travel through the thicker 53 mm puck. However, having said that, we all know that the Vivaldi is pulling great shots, so the results speak for themselves.  

I am definitely heading over to do some reading on S1cafe.com.

Thanks!
Zevi.
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__________
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 845
Location: .
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: None
Grinder: None
Vac Pot: None
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 2:59pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

RichardCoffee Said:

Some say the 53 shots are more like a triple basket with a 58 since they are deeper.  I think as long as you have a good grinder, either will be satisfactory.  
Finally, you might want to spend some time perusing posts at S1cafe.com.  Lots of info there - mostly from satisfied owners of the Vivaldis.

Posted April 19, 2013 link

My arithmetic may well be a bit off (!) but the difference between a double and a triple dose in terms of puck thickness should be 50% I reckon ?  The difference between a double shot size in a 53mm portafilter versus 58mm is closer to 16% I think  -  and  that's 16% of something that isn't very thick to start with, (unless you're a manic over-doser), so probably less than 2 mm difference in reality.

Some folk will find it makes a difference though, I'm sure ;o)

(feel free to correct my assumptions and/or maths)

Of the 2, I'd get the La Spaziale (in fact I almost did, except something else turned up instead), partly on the flimsy and easily dismissed reason that I've progressed past the point of liking the look of the almost ubiquitous stainless steel boxes (I used to own one) but also I like the fact it has been designed from the start as a double boiler machine and proven by time and a lot of happy users.

I doubt there is much to choose in terms of performance between the 2 though.  It's going to be down to personal preference.
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,326
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 4:37pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

For Zavi: the Preinfusion on an E61 group is provided by the preinfusion chamber at the lower pars of the group. I'ts a small chamber holding approx 10ml of liquid which fills once an approximate 3-4 bar pressure opens a sprung valve, this chamber fills and allows for a period of reduced pressure on the puck. With a Vibe pump this preinfusion is a fair bit longer than when using a rotary pump.

The middle position on an E61 group is not by design and not intended for any usage at all. Depending on how the pump actuation button is set up (how far it protrudes through the panel), determines whether the pump engages early or late. Early engaging pumps push against a closed valve, until the lever continues it's movement to the fully open position. late engaging pumps Either allow mains line pressure, or passive hot water dribbling in the case of a tanked machine. This type of puck wetting serves no practical use in my experience and is not a design feature of the E61 to the best of my knowledge.

I'm also not ever  trying to steer people to, or from, the La Spaziale range, all these machines have strengths and weaknesses.

Click Here (www.bellabarista.co.uk)
Click Here (www.bellabarista.co.uk)

I used both Vivaldis many years ago for quite a while and reviewed them comprehensively.....machines move on improvements are made. Still they have strengths and weaknesses, there are few/no perfect machines. There is however the perfect machine for a particular owner. All I try and do is give people the information to make that decision. If the weaknesses of the Vivaldi are not a problem to a particular individual and the weaknesses of the Quickmill are....they will buy the Vivaldi. I have no "owners glasses", no axe to grind and no commercial interest to fulfil. I own a Rocket R58, Izzo Alex Duetto, Fraciono heavenly and now a Quickmill Vetrano DB (Yeah, I decided I was going to keep my review machine). They all have their various strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes people don't want to hear what they are and that's fine, trouble is ignorance of an issue or problem, is not the best attitude. Some of the problems I find I can't even put in a review, because they are not so easily provable, I might suspect something is going on, but if I can 't prove it, then it doesn't go in a review (e.g. some temperature control system issue in the Vivaldis I reviewed).

My penchant is really for Dual Boiler machines (I keep the Fracino even though it's an HX, because it's a bit unusual).....Unfortunately, if ever another DB comes to market (I've been waiting), I might end up owning one of those too.

Dave

P.S. Just waiting for the 1kg Gene Cafe roaster to test......that should be interesting!
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Fri Apr 19, 2013, 4:43pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

DavecUK Said:

For Zavi: the Preinfusion on an E61 group is provided by the preinfusion chamber at the lower pars of the group. I'ts a small chamber holding approx 10ml of liquid which fills once an approximate 3-4 bar pressure opens a sprung valve, this chamber fills and allows for a period of reduced pressure on the puck. With a Vibe pump this preinfusion is a fair bit longer than when using a rotary pump.

The middle position on an E61 group is not by design and not intended for any usage at all. Depending on how the pump actuation button is set up (how far it protrudes through the panel, determines whether the pump engages early or late. Early engaging pumps push against a closed valve, until the lever continues it's movement to the fully open position. late engaging pumps Either allow mains line pressure, or passive hot water dribbling in the case of a tanked machine. This type of puck wetting serves no practical use in my experience and is not a design feature of the E61 to the best of my knowledge.

I'm also not ever  trying to steer people to or from the La Spaziale range, all these machines have strengths and weaknesses.

Click Here (www.bellabarista.co.uk)
Click Here (www.bellabarista.co.uk)

I used both Vivaldis many years ago for quite a while and reviewed them comprehensively.....machines move on improvements are made. Still they have strengths and weaknesses, there are few/no perfect machines. There is however the perfect machine for a particular owner. All I try and do is make give people the information to make that decision. If the weaknesses of the Vivaldi are not a problem to a particular individual and the weaknesses of the Quickmill are....they will buy the Vivaldi. I have no "owners glasses", no axe to grind and no commercial interest to fulfil. I own a Rocket R58, Izzo Alex Duetto, Fraciono heavenly and now a Quickmill Vetrano DB (Yeah, I decided I was going to keep my review machine). They all have their various strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes people don't want to hear what they are and that's fine, trouble is ignorance of an issue or problem, is not the best attitude. Some of the problems I find I can't even put in a review, because they are not so easily provable, I might suspect something is going on, but if I can 't prove it, then it doesn't go in a review (e.g. some temperature control system issue in the Vivaldis I reviewed).

My penchant is really for Dual Boiler machines (I keep the Fracino even though it's an HX, because it's a bit unusual).....Unfortunately, if ever another DB comes to market (I've been waiting), I might end up owning one of those too.

Dave

P.S. Just waiting for the 1kg Gene Cafe roaster to test......that should be interesting!

Posted April 19, 2013 link

Glad you are keeping the vetrano!! Hopefully we can compare notes someday
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Mon Apr 22, 2013, 7:23pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

RichardCoffee Said:

...you might want to spend some time perusing posts at S1cafe.com.  Lots of info there - mostly from satisfied owners of the Vivaldis.

Posted April 19, 2013 link

Been traveling so I didn't get to respond, but phew -- there's a lot of reading on that site! Yes, mostly happy owners, although there were some pet peeves that I would be concerned with -- e.g., water container leak/seat, drip tray size, steaming milk at small amounts (on/off lever), small "headroom" under the brew head (Anyone know how it compares to the headroom under the E61 of the QM67?) Also, many share my view of disliking the new looks of the Dream. Having said that, I should also note that I have not seen another "breed" of machines that owners go to such length of customizing them (lights, etc.) Something to think about.

DavecUK Said:

...
Click Here (www.bellabarista.co.uk)
Click Here (www.bellabarista.co.uk)

...I own a Rocket R58, Izzo Alex Duetto, Fraciono heavenly and now a Quickmill Vetrano DB (Yeah, I decided I was going to keep my review machine).

Posted April 19, 2013 link

Dave -- Although (I think) these are the pre-Vivaldi II machines, I like these detailed reviews. You definitely sound like an E61 person (which in fairness - you never tried to mask). I sure appreciate your information! I should also add that in case you ever run out of room, I'll be happy to store some of these machines for you... shipping address is available upon request... :-)

At this point I have to say that although the Mini Vivaldi and the QM67 seemingly compete at a similar price range, when you consider feature-wise comparison I don't like the fact that the La Spaz becomes $300 more expensive (add the timer, pre-infusion, and no-burn wand). Not a deal-killer yet, but definitely something I have to consider.
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,326
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Apr 22, 2013, 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Having hard time deciding between QuickMill QM67 and La Spaziale...
 

Zevi Said:

Been traveling so I didn't get to respond, but phew -- there's a lot of reading on that site! Yes, mostly happy owners, although there were some pet peeves that I would be concerned with -- e.g., water container leak/seat, drip tray size, steaming milk at small amounts (on/off lever), small "headroom" under the brew head (Anyone know how it compares to the headroom under the E61 of the QM67?) Also, many share my view of disliking the new looks of the Dream. Having said that, I should also note that I have not seen another "breed" of machines that owners go to such length of customizing them (lights, etc.) Something to think about.



Dave -- Although (I think) these are the pre-Vivaldi II machines, I like these detailed reviews. You definitely sound like an E61 person (which in fairness - you never tried to mask). I sure appreciate your information! I should also add that in case you ever run out of room, I'll be happy to store some of these machines for you... shipping address is available upon request... :-)

At this point I have to say that although the Mini Vivaldi and the QM67 seemingly compete at a similar price range, when you consider feature-wise comparison I don't like the fact that the La Spaz becomes $300 more expensive (add the timer, pre-infusion, and no-burn wand). Not a deal-killer yet, but definitely something I have to consider.

Posted April 22, 2013 link

Not so much E61, but 58mm.....e.g. the Fracino Heavenly is not an E61.

It's really about what you prefer...the main difference in design for brewing is the conductive heated brew head of the Vivaldi, vs the E61 thermosyphon system, smaller boiler on the vivaldi (500ml vs 750mm), requirement for a new whole new steam boiler if the heating element fails in the Vivaldi....and generally more expensive parts for the Vivaldis, plus the "reach around" for a timer. Steaming on the UK vivaldis was VERY good, and the water tank system in the Mini was nice. At the end of the day you have to go with what you like. Most of the top end prosumer stuff makes good coffee.
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