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A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > A new problem...  
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 720
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Thu Jun 20, 2013, 8:25am
Subject: Re: A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
 

billc Said:

Dean,
Can you post a pic or video of the method you are using to measure pressure?  Measuring the pressure that is actually in the coffee is not super easy and I just want to be sure you are getting a good measurement.  With all pumps, pressure is directly dependent upon the flow rate.  With a vibe pump it is even more sensitive.  If you post your method I would be more able to determine if the pressure you are recording is correct or not.



Bill

Posted June 20, 2013 link

I have a PF with a gauge screwed on the bottom of it. No basket and no coffee.... just blanked off by the gauge.  When everything is working ok, and I am making decent shots, the pressure peaks at around 8.5 bars and stays reasonably close to that when tested blanked off for 30 seconds or so.

The issue I had a few days ago was that under those conditions, pressure was going up and down from 3 bars to 8 bars back and forth in a rythmic fashion. I was able to see water returning to the tank when the pressure would start to drop.

I filled the tank with descaler, blanked off the flow with the PF with the gauge on it and turned it on. Under these conditions, according to the piping schematic in the manual, it appears that the descaler solution would probably be fed directly to the pressure valve when it is bypassing so I am assuming that the acid was running through the pressure valve under these conditions (and not the water in the boiler). I let the water/acid bypass through the pressure valve and it started out pulsing up and down from 3 bars to 8 bars or so. It did this for about 45 seconds or so, and then it locked in on 8.5 bars and stayed there... been working ever since.

Since the descaling about 3 or 4 weeks ago, I have been using bottled water that is supposed to have very low hardness. Before that, I used municiapal water that was running through a double carbon filter. I don't think the filter I was using then did anything to correct hardness... just taste and chemicals. If I remember correctly, the municipal water I used for the first 9 months or so has a hardness of 50-75 PPM as reported by the minicipal authorities. The descaling I did a few days ago (when the pessure was going up and down) is after 3 or 4 weeks of bottled water being used in the machine.

Also, the issue I had with pressure a few weeks ago was different... the pressure did not go up and down. It was just low... I dont remember the exact number now, but I posted it at the time here in the forum. I think it was 5 or 6 bars or so.
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billc
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 135
Location: Seattle, Washington
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: CC1 - GS - GS3 - GB5
Grinder: Baratza - Mazzer-Marzocco
Drip: My own Creation
Posted Thu Jun 20, 2013, 5:24pm
Subject: Re: A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
 

Would it be possible to see a video of the process?

BillC
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 720
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Thu Jun 20, 2013, 6:30pm
Subject: Re: A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
 

billc Said:

Would it be possible to see a video of the process?

BillC

Posted June 20, 2013 link

Well, I guess so.... I guess I am not as articulate as I thought I was because I thought it was pretty straight forward... I will try to take time this weekend to do it.... right now it is working, so all your going to see is the pressure gauge go up to 8 bars (the gauge is off by about 1/2 bar compared to some other gauged I have), and it will stay within 1 bar of there for the entire 30 seconds.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 720
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Fri Jun 21, 2013, 9:43pm
Subject: Re: A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
 

billc Said:

Would it be possible to see a video of the process?

BillC

Posted June 20, 2013 link

Here 'ya go.

I had to put some Teflon tape on the threads of the PF to get the pressure gauge to turn around a bit to get a better angle for the camera. I also took off the clear bezel on the pressure gauge to cut down on glare. This gauge measures about a half a bar low when compared to some other gauges I have.

Click Here (www.youtube.com)
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billc
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 135
Location: Seattle, Washington
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: CC1 - GS - GS3 - GB5
Grinder: Baratza - Mazzer-Marzocco
Drip: My own Creation
Posted Mon Jun 24, 2013, 5:31am
Subject: Re: A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
 

Dean,
Perfect.  Thank you for taking the time to post this video.  What I notice in the video is the ramp up of pressure is slow for the CC1.  What I mean is when the portafilter is full of water (all air has escaped or compressed fully) the pressure gauge goes form about zero to 8 bar on your gauge.   The speed the needle moves looks slow to me based on my observations of other CC1's I have tested over the years.  

There can be 2 main causes for this.  THe first is an obstruction or foreign debris in the OPV or the OPV is just set too low.  If it has been eratic like you have posted I would suspect that there is something in there.  The second is the pump.  If there was an obstruction in the pump it would not let let the pump come to full pressure.  One other issue is if the OPV has an obstruction there is a case when hot water can enter the water reservoir.  When this happens there is a small possibility that the water in the water reservoir could become too hot for the pump.   The pump is made to pump cold water only and hot water will either reduce the maximum pressure the pump can produce or cause the pump to fail completely.  


I am willing to be that there is something in your OPV.  Would you be interested to try a new one to isolate the problem?  I am happy to send you one.   Send me and PM or email.



Bill
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 720
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:47am
Subject: Re: A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
 

Yes, I am more than happy to put the valve in as long as it doesn't take any special tools. Just make sure that if I need any special gaskets, o-rings or nylon seals that they come with the valve. In fact, I would prefer this method because I am afraid that the fact that many of my problems have been intermittent that they will not get fixed at all if I send it back to the vendor I bought it from. I will send you my shipping info to your email address.

I'm aware of the issue with the air trapped in the PF. To be honest, when I check pressure, I usually pre-fill the portafilter with water but I didn't do that for this video. I did not suspect that the flow was low though because when the pressure valve is bypassing, it seems to have a healthy stream of water going back to the tank.

Can the original pressure valve be disassembled and inspected? If so, I wouldn't mind disassembling and inspecting it before you ship another one.

Also, please remember that I have had intermittent issues with the steam wand leaking water during warm up. Not sure if all of this s related but I can tell you that the steam wand does not leak while making espresso. This problem is not  prevalent these days because I programmed one of the menus to a temperature of 170F and when I am not going to use the machine, I switch it over to the the menu that keep it 170F and just leave it on. Then when I am going to make espresso, I switch over to a menu that I have programmed to heat up to 202F. This allows me to get the machine up to temperature in a short amount of time.

I might be able to time how fast the pump can fill a graduated container (using the steam wand) if you want me to. This may give you enough information to know if the pump is flowing normally without working against any pressure.. not sure this is useful, but will be glad to do it if you think it will be.

Edit to add info:
Also, when the  pump is pumping against the blanked off PF, such as it was in the video, there is still water bypassing to the tank. This info is probably useful in terms of the fact that you can assume that it is the pressure valve limiting the pressure, not the pump.

Second edit... to correct about a dozen spelling & typo errors... geeze.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 720
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Jun 24, 2013, 4:18pm
Subject: Re: A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
 

How long to dispense hot water from steam wand:

For Bill, or anyone else trying to diagnose issues with a CC1, I dispensed 8 oz of water from the steam tip with the standard CC1 single hole tip in place in about 21 or 22 seconds. I am assuming for Bill's informed knowledge of the specifications on the unit, this will at least tell him if the pump is pumping the right volume under "no pressure" conditions. If anyone else out there has a CC1, maybe you can throw a measuring cup under the steam wand and dispense hot water and tell us if yours is similar.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 720
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Jun 24, 2013, 5:33pm
Subject: Re: A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
 

I know this is wearing everyone down... but the saga deepens. I still had the portafilter with the gauge installed on the machine when I came home from work tonight, so I turned it on and it started the oscillating up and down again. This is only the second time I have caught it doing this. Last time, I descaled the machine (just a few days ago. This time, I shut it off, pushed the return line up into the unit enough that I could tell for sure what the return line was doing. I shot a video with the return line showing in behind the pressure gauge. The pressure is not dropping hardly as low as it was the first time I caught it doing this, but otherwise it is the same thing I observed before.  Here is a link. Hope this helps Bill....

Click Here (www.youtube.com)
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billc
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 135
Location: Seattle, Washington
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: CC1 - GS - GS3 - GB5
Grinder: Baratza - Mazzer-Marzocco
Drip: My own Creation
Posted Tue Jun 25, 2013, 6:16am
Subject: Re: A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
 

Dean,
This sure does look like there is something in your OPV or something happened to the OPV.  Your new one is one the way and should be there in a couple of days.  I am anxious to see if this solves the issue.  I will also send a return label to send the old one back for evaluation.  I woud love to be able to solve this in case any other user has a similar issue.

Can you tell me the brand of descale product you use?  I will get some and soak the rubber parts in it and then send to make a chemical analysis if needed.  Not all descale products are nice to espresso machines.  Not sure if this could even bee an issue but wanted to check just in case.  If it is I may need to send you a few more components (that have rubber seals in them).


Thanks
Bill C
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 720
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Jun 25, 2013, 6:32am
Subject: Re: A new problem with my CC1 (brew pressure again)
 

billc Said:

Dean,
Can you tell me the brand of descale product you use?

Posted June 25, 2013 link

I used Urnex Dezcal. This is the brand that was shipped  in a maintenance kit that the vendor supplied with the CC1. I think the kit also included some tablets for cleaning grinders. I am not convinced I have ever had a mineral problem. I just used the descaler trying to get rid of the pressure issues.
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