Posted Mon Jul 26, 2004, 9:00pm Subject: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
CKX - Wega Lyra
Does anyone know what the differences are on the specs for these two machines? Searching for info on CKX has resulted in very little real detail.
From what I can see the CKX is a commercial group, rather than e61 and does not have the rotary pump option Lyra has. I am interested in the internals - and how the two stack up.
I had heard that the CKX is of comparable quality to Cimbali Junior?
Price
Given I like all three of these machines appearances equally - am I getting a better quality machine as the price goes up and is the price differential justified if one is prepared to pay for the quality provided it is actually worth paying that extra amount? I suspect the CKX and Cimbali Junior look like bargains given the prices I've seen on US sites.
Ability to produce good microfoam is key as we drink a lot of milk based drinks.
CKX: US$1420
Giotto Premium: US$1,670
Cimbali Junior (vibe pump model not plumbed in): US$2,200
emster Senior Member Joined: 28 Jun 2004 Posts: 6 Location: melbourne Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La cimbali Junior/S Grinder: Mazzer mini
Posted Mon Jul 26, 2004, 10:02pm Subject: Re: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
I am in Melbourne
I recently weighed up purchasing an ECM Giotto Premuim and the La Cimbali junior/S. I went and saw both operating. The ECM was priced at AUS$2550 and the La cimbali at AUS$2715 (which is about US$1900 - based on an exchange rate of about AUS$1 = US$0.70 - 0.71), because the store I purchased from gave me a big discount for cash (I am reluctant to name the store in an open forum).
Everyone I spoke to (and who anwered my forum post) about which one to buy, as between the ECM and the cimbali, said "no contest", the la cimbali wins hands down, so I bought it and also mazzer mini. The cimbali is built like a little tank and all the fittings are commercial quality not prosumer. I went to the importer and compared the fittings on the junior with a commercial 4 group cimbali and the steam wand, hot water tap, portafillers and group head fittings appeared identical or very similar.
One month in and they are working together brilliantly, although I still have a lot of learning to do. The quality of the coffee I am producing (sometimes!) is as good as anything I have had in a cafe. The steam wand is so powerful that at first I was boiling the milk after about 8 seconds of frothing after starting with cold milk in a cold jug!
Where do you propose to purchase the cimbali ?
The sole importer and servicer of la cimbali machines in Australia is Coffex in Brunswick.
Posted Mon Jul 26, 2004, 10:37pm Subject: Re: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
Emster
Buying?: I am in Perth, so if it were Cimbali - from Supreme Coffee Machines.
Big discount for cash: may be I need to offer cash (but I have to save that cash first - I had planned on months and months of research like a real GEEK). Do your guys deliver interstate and would you give me their details by email (inside the cone of silence)?
Paul_Pratt Senior Member Joined: 2 Sep 2002 Posts: 300 Location: HK + UK Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Marzocco SMAL + GS Grinder: Vulcano Drip: Pourover cone works best for... Roaster: Probat
Posted Tue Jul 27, 2004, 9:37pm Subject: Re: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
Mega confusing but here goes...
Wega + Astoria + San Marino are all made by CMA. Some units amongst brands are identical but may have different names. For example the Astoria Fully-Auto is called a Sara but Wega call the same machine Gemini.
Now the Wega Lyra is I believe the same as an Astoria Compact. According to my manuals from CMA..
Compact CKX - Machine with an on/off brew switch
Compact CKXE - Mchine with a "brain" i.e. doses are programmable and you have 4 programs.
The 'X" in the above names means that the machine is made with the steel body. Without an x i.e. CK or CKE means it comes with a black plastic body - not recommended.
Usually when ordering from the factory we order to upgrade to a rotary pump. So a machine called CKXE could have either a vibe or a rotary. You just specify the rotary bit.
The brewing groups may not say E61 but they are a commercial brewing group based on,if not the same. Difference between this and the Giotto is that these have the 3-way solenoid rather than a lever.
Drummo Senior Member Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 54 Location: Perth, Western Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Giotto Premium Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Posted Wed Jul 28, 2004, 9:17am Subject: Re: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
MikeW,
You are right when you say it's confusing. Externally at least, the only differences between the CKX and Wega Mininova seem purely cosmetic, but the Wega is quite a bit more expensive than the CKX.
Info from the brochures, and speaking to local dealers, indicates that the semi auto CKX and the fully auto CKXE BOTH have vibe pumps, as does the semi auto Wega Mininova Inox PV. Only the fully auto Mininova Inox PV has the rotary pump, and is A$660 more than the semi auto Mininova.
The only other difference clearly apparent from the brochures I have is that the CKX and CKXE are both 1300W, whereas the Wegas are 1500W (I see they are 1200W in US).
There must surely be some other differences to justify the price differences.
The CKX weight is shown in the brochure as 25.28 Kg (does that mean 25.28 or 25-28 depending on the model?) - UK site gives a weight of 24Kg, and a shipping weight of 30.8Kg with water softener. The Wega brochure doesn't specify its weight, but US sites give a weight of 35Kg. If there is a such a significant weight difference, it would be interesting to know what the cause is.
Incidentally, I was not over impressed with the look and finish of the CKX, and preferred both the Giotto and the Grimac on that score, but that is probably just my personal take on things. I also found the potential range of movement on the CKX steam wand very restricted - is that normal on these machines?
I have yet to see the Wega in the flesh, but will try to check one out tomorrow.
Posted Wed Jul 28, 2004, 12:00pm Subject: Re: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
Drummo Said:
The CKX weight is shown in the brochure as 25.28 Kg (does that mean 25.28 or 25-28 depending on the model?) - UK site gives a weight of 24Kg, and a shipping weight of 30.8Kg with water softener. The Wega brochure doesn't specify its weight, but US sites give a weight of 35Kg. If there is a such a significant weight difference, it would be interesting to know what the cause is.
The frame of the Wega is more like a commercial machine than a semi-commercial. I've seen the insides of Cimbalis, Wegas, Giottos, Isomacs, and Euro2000s, and there's no comparison -- the Wega's frame is more like the Cimbalis than it is like the others. That won't make it perform any better than its semi-commercial brethren, but it does make it a little more resistant to shipping damage when shipped individually in a carton rather than bundled with many other machines on a skid.
If you can buy it and have it serviced locally, I don't think the heavier frame of the Wega is more than a tiny advantage.
What is the Cimbali like for steaming small amounts of milk - like for 1 cappa or latte? If it is no good at this level, how many mls of milk need to be in the jug before it steams well?
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