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Used Gaggia Classic with PID problems and no water coming out.
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Used Gaggia...  
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,897
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Mon Sep 2, 2013, 1:52pm
Subject: Re: Used Gaggia Classic with PID problems and no water coming out.
 

osteenjames Said:

Without my Baratza vario grinder I have used some espresso that is not ground fine enough and the Oscar makes better shots than the Gaggia with PID on it.

Posted September 2, 2013 link

That is not an adequate test of either machine.  They may need different grinds, one size does not fit all, and in this case perhaps fits neither.  If the OPV has not been adjusted to about 9 bar on the Gaggia then is will be a little intolerant of being off grind.  I can't speak to the Oscar, but Gaggia may be at 11 - 12 bar factory.  I expect that you will dial the grinder a little differently for each machine prolonging the learning.

I like my Gaggia and it serves well for 1 - 2 brews and cappuccino.  I do not steam a lot.  It I had both machines in hand I would probably keep Oscar.  My wife would prefer stainless for the counter, or I know that I would keep Oscar for similar price.

I also use Redbird espresso and Blue Jag and recommend the Espresso blend for dial in and either for daily.

Read the BST rules top, **MUST READ**, and I think that it answers your question about 10 posts versus 3 months.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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osteenjames
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Aug 2013
Posts: 47
Location: St Paul Minnesota
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 6:26am
Subject: Re: Used Gaggia Classic with PID problems and no water coming out.
 

Thanks for all your feedback. I am new and don't mind challenges. I am having problems with machine again. I set SV to 216 and AH1 Steam on to 284 and AL1 Steam off to 284 as well. Now, brew temp is the SV 216 Plus or minus 1degree, but I cannot get any hot steam. What happens is I turn on steam switch open steam knob and a little water spurts out and then low pressure warm air.
Experiment 1:  I adjusted steam AL1 and AH1 up to 300 and left brew temp at 216 and had no effect on steam. Same weak hot air out wand.
Experiment 2:  I adjusted brew temp up to 240 left AL1 and AH2 at 300 and got steam out wand but no water out brew head only flash steam, so I adjusted SV temp back to 216
Experiment 3:  I adjusted brew temp up to 240 adjusted AH1 to 284 and AL1 to 284 and steam on wand but only steam brew head.
adjusted SV temp back to 216
***Default is SV 212 AH 284 AL 283 tried that too.

I am willing to do more experimenting to solve this problem but I will need expertise from others to solve this delema.

I saw some other settings like 1d, bb maybe but I scrolled through them until I just got to SV, AL, AH hope I didn't misadjust something.

I bought this machine on EBAY there was a reserve set and top bid of approx 335.00 and auction ended. I contacted seller and bought for 400.00 which was a buy it now feature.
I left no feedback with seller as I am new to this machine and would not want to give an unfair assessment. Why would someone send a machine to someone with a SV set way to high to begin with which is going to cause no water out brew head only flash steam?
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,897
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 9:26am
Subject: Re: Used Gaggia Classic with PID problems and no water coming out.
 

SV is where you want idle or brew temperature.  That should be about 212F - 220F, I use 214.  If you raise that to above boiling you will get minimal steam as you found.  Remember that the sensor is giving boiler wall temperature, a bit below water temperature.  That should explain your SV findings.

Alarm is not like SV.  As you see there is high and low.  Turn on and off temperature.  If set the same, you get no response, they cancel, irrespective of the actual value.  IIRC, my set AH is one degree lower than AL, not the default that you mentioned.  You need to read the Auber alarm section on absolute high and absolute low alarms.  You want the low alarm so that the temperature is trying to stay between the two settings, not outside the two settings.  Look at the graphs under alarm settings.  Try SV 212 - 215F your choice with AH 284 and AL 285.  

I do not have the kit but DIY.  My wiring is different but I believe that they are set up the same on those temperatures.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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osteenjames
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Aug 2013
Posts: 47
Location: St Paul Minnesota
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 11:38am
Subject: Re: Used Gaggia Classic with PID problems and no water coming out.
 

I was reading the PID-KIT GGS CD Instructions and in the section frothing milk it says due to RD sensor location, etc for gaggia machine set AL1 STEAM OFF TO 300 degrees and AH1 STEAM ON to 299 degrees. I did this and made sure all other settings were correct and machine will now when I turn Steam Switch ON the machine heats way up to produce massive steam and then when I turn off Steam Switch the machine....Slowly..starts lowering to SV temp I have set at 216. Unfortunately, after the steam use it takes machine almost 3 minutes to cool to set value.

Question: 1. With SV set at 214 what is the minimum temp I can let machine cool to after I use steam and turn off steam switch (AL1=300) before hitting the brew switch?
Question: 2. Is it normal to wait 3 minutes for machine to recover to SV after using steam?

I experimented and found that once it gets to around 235 I can hit brew and water will come from brew head as well as some steam. But I am asking question because I don't want to hit brew until you tell me best Temp.

This forum and the people ROCK! I am really learning a lot.

P.S. To be more helpful I tried to copy and paste the PID KIT PDF instructions from adobe acrobat but it would not let me.
Note: The alarm temps on/off you gave me were the correct default setting but the PID KIT GGS Instructions said use 300 and 299 for gaggia specifically from their study and so I used 300 and 299 and now it works.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,897
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 5:16pm
Subject: Re: Used Gaggia Classic with PID problems and no water coming out.
 

The Steam temperature is fine as set.  I stayed a bit low at about 284F because of overshoot and because I didn't want to risk using the thermofuse, replaceable, not reset.  Your earlier post had the AH and AL values reversed, not a problem of the temperature, but of reversal.  I did not buy the kit so did not have Auber's numbers.

The weakness of SBDU is return to use after steam.  After steam you still have to refill with water, there is no autofill.  If you use it without filling the boiler you will get steam out the group.  After steaming you need to turn on the pump/brew switch with the wand open and the steam switch off.  If you do not fill the boiler this way, but through the group with the steam valve closed you will still leave a cap of air/steam over the water.  The steam release is the high point.

Some will fill the 300F boiler with cold water immediately.  I do not know of a recommended wait time.  In practice, I brew once or twice and then steam to avoid the turn around.  When I am done steam I wrap the open wand with a wet towel and let the steam out and essentially steam clean the wand.  I then run water in as above and the boiler is often 220ish.

The PID algorithms work on the way down as well if I understand correctly.  P is the proportional band, a % of the sensor temperature range that the algorithms are active.  It them damps the fall of temperature as well as the rise in that chosen band, perhaps 50 - 100F.  I believe that you can get the temperature to fall a bit faster by turning the machine off for a short interval.

If you wish to understand what is happening, a little light reading for the first 15 pages.

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/571792

The fastest way to cool is to run the pump.  Water is active cooling, vs waiting, passive.

WRT when to brew again.  You will have to know what hits the puck for water temperature.  The PID is reading the boiler wall and the water is cooler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sluei1-IkTw

The real question is when is the machine and water temperature stable after a brew, and then after steaming.  You can see what I do in that video after brewing.  Try brew but not steam and see the PID temperature.  Next repeat brew and when done turn off the PID for 15 seconds and see the temperature.  Cool water mixed with out PID involvement.

Another Gaggia study

Click Here (www.afonic.org)

I am happy with the Gaggia because it serves my use at a great price and has been fun.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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Coffeenoobie
Senior Member
Coffeenoobie
Joined: 11 Dec 2011
Posts: 2,973
Location: PNW
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: N S Oscar
Grinder: K30 & Vario W
Posted Fri Sep 6, 2013, 1:10pm
Subject: Re: Used Gaggia Classic with PID problems and no water coming out.
 

How is the testing going with the 2 machines??

 
Coffeenoobie

Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder.

My coffee treasure map...
Click Here (maps.google.com)

Oscar trick out: http://s156.photobucket.com/user/GandBteam/story/14231
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osteenjames
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Aug 2013
Posts: 47
Location: St Paul Minnesota
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Sep 6, 2013, 1:54pm
Subject: Re: Used Gaggia Classic with PID problems and no water coming out.
 

I have my Baratza Vario Grinder and just received my Red Bird Espresso and Blue Jaguar.
I've been experimenting with Caribou coffee beans and had to set my macro switch to 3 any less and Oscar would get choked with 30lb tamp.
So with Grind setting at 3 macro and micro at V or W, I get a 30 second shot with 1/2 inch crema but shot taste to bitter or sour. Looks to kill but not good taste.

Im just now going to start a shot with Oscar and Red Bird setting start????3mac and V micro.

Question: Will tamping same amount of coffee same settings with less than 30lbs create less bitter taste?
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osteenjames
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Aug 2013
Posts: 47
Location: St Paul Minnesota
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Sep 6, 2013, 2:42pm
Subject: Coffee Testing of Oscar Simonelli and Gaggia Classic with PID
 

Ok. I got my Baratza Vario grinder and my RED BIRD and BLUE JAGUAR coffee.
Note: I was testing with Caribou beans and they would choke Oscar at anything Macro 2 so I had to use Mac 3 micro W result was great Crema and sour coffee.

REDBIRD RESULTS: WOW! what a difference! I adjusted Macro to 2 and have Micro at T and I used about 27 lbs of pressure. Shot came out nice and Carmel 27 seconds probably one micro adjustment to get 30 second. Shot did not taste sour so I immediately made latte and am drinking this one to see how high it will lift me. This espresso definitely has cafe quality and the taste reminded me of chocolate.
I feel my search for the perfect taste is finally satisfied. It appears OSCAR and RED BIRD coffee are a perfect match.
I'm saving BLUE JAGUAR for when RED BIRD coffee runs out. I just got one pound each. I figured if I played with the Caribou coffee enough I would find my ball-park range on the grinder for when good coffee came. It took me 1/2 pound of bad caribou beans (YUK) to find ball-park.
When REDBIRD came I only had to throw out 4 double shots.
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Coffeenoobie
Senior Member
Coffeenoobie
Joined: 11 Dec 2011
Posts: 2,973
Location: PNW
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: N S Oscar
Grinder: K30 & Vario W
Posted Fri Sep 6, 2013, 4:04pm
Subject: Re: Used Gaggia Classic with PID problems and no water coming out.
 

Every batch of coffee is different and types/brands/roasts are even more different. You can ballpark red bird with itself but not with another type of coffee.

 
Coffeenoobie

Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder.

My coffee treasure map...
Click Here (maps.google.com)

Oscar trick out: http://s156.photobucket.com/user/GandBteam/story/14231
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osteenjames
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Aug 2013
Posts: 47
Location: St Paul Minnesota
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Sep 6, 2013, 4:18pm
Subject: Re: Used Gaggia Classic with PID problems and no water coming out.
 

Other coffee was just for practice because I did not have REDBIRD yet it was still comming in the mail.  I just needed a starting point. What I did worked for me, cause I didn't have to burn up alot of REDBIRD when it came only had to throw out 4 doubles before I dialed in. Maybe I was just lucky.
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