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apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > apples & oranges...  
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MJW
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Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Sep 13, 2013, 12:02pm
Subject: Re: apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
 

Peter, tell me precisely what the misinformation was, and I'll fix it.
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PeterWWbeagle
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Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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Location: Denver
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Espresso: Quick Mill Anita,CMA...
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Posted Fri Sep 13, 2013, 12:32pm
Subject: Re: apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
 

What am I missing?

Have you not read Wayne's reply about your misinformation?  

As Wayne so succinctly said:  "The misinformation is that the first shot on a HX is a sink shot."

What I could add is that I find rumor mongering and unsubstantiated equipment bashing to be offensive and unprofessional.
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MJW
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Sep 13, 2013, 12:55pm
Subject: Re: apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
 

PeterWWbeagle Said:

What I could add is that I find rumor mongering and unsubstantiated equipment bashing to be offensive and unprofessional.

Posted September 13, 2013 link

I'm sorry you're unhappy.

It might be difficult for me to be sympathetic to Lisa's situation about cold shots, and let her know that she is not alone in finding the first shot to be different, while at the same time catering to the high level of sensitivity of a small number of people on this forum.  I will continue to do my best.

If you can point me to the misinformation, rumor mongering, and unsubstantiated equipment bashing that you feel occurred, I'm happy to alter any of my posts, so that the false information is corrected.
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JasonBrandtLewis
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JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,368
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
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Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Fri Sep 13, 2013, 4:40pm
Subject: Re: apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
 

Mike?  As, by now, multiple attempts have been made -- and clearly stated, IMHO -- to correct the misinformation, I can only presume that your repeated requests for clarification have either a) fallen on deaf ears, or b) are a result of some sort of defensiveness on your part.  Then again, I presume that any sort of hearing loss is irrelevant as we are all reading here, rather than listening, and I see no reason to be defensive.  I am thus at something of a loss.

MJW Said:

I have seen more than one complaint about HX machines, that the first shot is a "sink shot".

Posted September 12, 2013 link

THIS IS MISINFORMATION.  I'm not sure how more clearly one could state that.  (I thought Wayne did an excellent job, but apparently you found it somewhat lacking, for reasons beyond my understanding.)  

The link to Home-Barista which you included in your initial post does not say "that the first shot (on an HX machine) is a sink shot."  Indeed, it says nothing of the sort!  The thread is about rancid oils on a dirty screen/grouphead, and has nothing to do specifically with HX machines . . . or any other specific type of machine, for that matter.  It has to do with any and all machines!  The moral of the story thread is "Keep your machine clean."

HX machines need a "cooling flush" to bring the temperature at the grouphead down to brewing temp, rather than boiler temperature (which is where the machine is at rest).  SBDU machines either need a cooling flush or a warming flush, depending upon where the machine was set prior to pulling the shot.  DBs need a warming flush.

MJW Said:

(Y)ou could pull a blank first, and then the water path is more likely to be ready.

Posted September 12, 2013 link

Yes, but what you call "pulling a blank" is what most of us call a cooling flush.  Whereas "pulling a blank" implies drawing a 1.5-2.0 ounce volume of water through the grouphead, a "cooling flush" is based upon temperature not volume.  My Elektra T1, with its 6.0L boiler, needs a longer cooling flush in the morning (it's on 24/7).  My La Valentina, with its 1.3L boiler, needs a smaller one.  

MJW Said:

Part of the problem you're encountering, is due to the complexity of the machine.

Posted September 12, 2013 link

This, too, is misinformation, as every machine type (SBDU, HX, DB) has its own unique set of "complications."  Try to pull a shot on a SBDU the way you do on a DB or an HX, and you will make a sink shot.  So, too, on an HX the way you do on a DB or SBDU; or on a DB the way you do on an HX or SBDU . . . You need to make the shot for your machine -- not only what type of machine, but your specific machine!  I cannot make it exactly the same way on my Elektra as I do on my La Val . . . or on my Olympic or my Caravel . . . .

MJW Said:

Expensive machines have recognized the need to keep the group warm and use thermosiphoning or "saturated" groups.  But these expensive machines are not designed to warm up well from cold.  You're best off to pull a blank shot first after it warms up.

Posted September 12, 2013 link

This, too, is misinformation . . . or, at least, misleading information.  All machines not only need to come up to temperature, but to reach thermal stability before being capable of pulling the best shot possible.  This is as true for an SBDU like a Silvia as it is for an HX or DB . . .

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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MJW
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Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Sep 13, 2013, 6:48pm
Subject: Re: apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
 

Jason if you don't want people to be defensive, one thing you can do is bring the attitude down a notch.  Up to you, but since you're complaining about defensiveness in others I'm just pointing out that you yourself may be the primary cause.

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

The link to Home-Barista which you included in your initial post does not say "that the first shot (on an HX machine) is a sink shot."

Posted September 13, 2013 link

That's true, it does not say that the first shot (on an HX machine) is a sink shot.

But it does contain quotes of people complaining about the first shot being not as good as the second, and what they've tried in order to fix it.
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MJW
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Sep 13, 2013, 6:53pm
Subject: Re: apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
 

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

but what you call "pulling a blank" is what most of us call a cooling flush.

Posted September 13, 2013 link

No.  If you read the thread I linked to, they tried flushing, and the first shot -- in their opinion -- still wasn't as good as the second and successive ones.

Thus my speculation that anyone having this problem could simply pull a blank shot first.  Fooling the machine, as it were, into thinking you've pulled the first shot.  Just spelling everything out so that you understand.
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MJW
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Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Sep 13, 2013, 6:56pm
Subject: Re: apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
 

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

This, too, is misinformation . . . or, at least, misleading information.

Posted September 13, 2013 link

Well which is it, Jason.
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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,368
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat Sep 14, 2013, 6:29am
Subject: Re: apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
 

Mike, this is not a contest to see who can pick the most nits, nor is it a p***ing match.  If you cannot play nice, my advice is "Don't play."  Anyway, as far as this topic of conversation is concerned, I'm done, as the discussion has not only long ago departed from what the OP posted about two years ago, but what Lisa posted about two days ago . . . that THAT is a shame.

P.S.  There is an "Edit" button, by the way, that you can use -- when you think of something else you want to say -- that will permit you to simply add to your post, rather than post three separate times.  It's in the top right above your post(s), in case you hadn't noticed.

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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MJW
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Sep 14, 2013, 3:31pm
Subject: Re: apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
 

Jason I agree I was going to suggest you sit this one out.
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MJW
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Sep 14, 2013, 4:00pm
Subject: Re: apples & oranges - rancilio silvia vs rocket giotto
 

A statement that is true cannot be misinformation.  Misinformation must be false, or inaccurate.  If I say, "I've read more than one HX owner complain that the first shot is a sink shot", and it's true, then it is a true statement, and it is an accurate statement.

That particular statement is misleading, since a natural inference is that only HX owners are making complaints.  But the statement doesn't say that.  So the statement is misleading -- you can make a good case that it's misleading -- but it's not misinformation.

People have problems with their machines, and it's very helpful for them that they are not the only one with the problem.  They can go online, find other people with the problem, and learn how to fix it.  It's not misinformation to refer to others who have had the same problem.

If someone says, "HX machines give you cancer", and it is not true, then that is misinformation.  It's a false statement, and disseminating false statements is disseminating misinformation.

Any inference a reader draws as a result of interpreting some statement, exists in their head.  It is possible for anyone to make wrong inferences from any text.  The most that person can do is complain that the text is misleading.
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