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Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,675
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Mon Oct 28, 2013, 3:48am
Subject: Re: Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
 

I understand that Breville is like Ford

Think Yugo

while the others are more like a Rolls Royce or an MG - handmade, art-like craftsmanship, maybe finicky but superb when truly understood. Point is, at $1000 I don't see any Rolls available plus I am a newbie - I think there is value in removing variables from the equation so I can focus on getting great shots.

It is a question of build quality vs little quality at all,  not RR, in your price range, think Ford, Chevy or Dodge. Solid well working machines that get the job done. No high end machines were mentioned by us, only work horse get the job done machines.


Many of you are obviously on a different stage, hence will find it harder to like a Breville; that is fine with me. But please be really critical and come down to my level and situation before bashing the product. I'm not trying to defend it. If it truly is a POS and that becomes obvious from your arguments, I will not buy a 900XL, but with so many positive reviews everywhere, I must try to sort out the natural biases from connoisseurs and see if it makes sense for me, not as the perfect machine for everyone. So, if you will, please help me understand which bells and whistles are key or irrelevant and why.

Consumer reviews like Amazon are filled with reviews from users who
1 don't know what they are doing
2 think Starbucks is high quality coffee
3 most use preground coffee from the supermarket


2 boilers - must have, nice to have, irrelevant?

Not better or worse, just different.


PID - must have, nice to have, irrelevant?

Depends on machine,  SBDU and DB yes, HX no.

Pre-infusion - mh, n2h, ir?

Machine dependent. Some like E61, Pf is built in and isn't listed.


No temp surfing - mu, n2h, ir?

If consistency is your goal, why would you guess at temp? Temp surfing is guessing because machine does not have tight enough temp regulation. Cooling flush on HX is NOT temp surfing.

Auto on / no waiting around - mh, n2h, ir? (obvious this is a n2h, but don't underestimate the value of not having to wait for the machine to warm up every morning)

Personal decision, all machines take half an hour or more to reach temp stability. If you turn on half hour before use, then no timer is not a useful feature, if you want to wake up and drink coffee, yes it is a good to have.

User descaling - mh, n2h, ir?

Not mandatory but if you don't want the extra cost, then yes. Descaling is normal care of a machine. It would be like making and paying for a service appointment for your car to check the air in your tires. YMMV?

No thermoblock - mh, n2h, ir?

THERMOBLOCK is OK for generating steam but is a very poor way to brew, little temp regulation, computer controlled or not.

Other key items that I'm not considering?

Thanks a lot again!

Sure, from the start of this thread honest opinions have been given.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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EricBNC
Senior Member
EricBNC
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 1,866
Location: North Carolina
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM Silvano, LP Stradivarius,...
Grinder: K30, Major, Preciso, Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Sunbeam C30, Bodum Santos...
Drip: Bonavita BV-1800,...
Roaster: Behmor, Melitta, Fresh...
Posted Mon Oct 28, 2013, 5:24am
Subject: Re: Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
 

I picked up a Saeco Rio Vapore (older version that looks like a Starbucks Barista) for eight bucks a while back - this is a decent place to start if you are not sure about espresso but want to test the waters. It came with a non-pressurized portafilter so a decent grinder is a must - luckily I have some of those handy...

I like what I can get out of this machine.

EricBNC: Saeco cg.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,249
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Oct 28, 2013, 8:34am
Subject: Re: Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
 

In a world where we are always being told to not tell the truth because it will hurt someones feelings  ( PC ) this made me
feel good.  I for quite some time had pinpointed the Oscar plastic or not as my next move.
It did all I wanted well. It was even rated for small cafe use. Then when I found out it was carrying a Sirai P-stat and the plastic was ABS commercial grade I was over joyed.
Phrases like a beast,a work horse and super dependable all came to mind. When the E61 I now have came available from 1stLine for the price it did I went that route and am
very happy. People here should never discount the Oscar.

Markarian Said:

The user biases against Breville are because they are mass-produced with cheaper plastic parts and aimed squarely at people who would rather just have espresso, rather than learn how to make espresso. Their grinder is mediocre and has steps that are too wide for the fine adjustments necessary for espresso.

Do not dismiss the Oscar so readily because of its looks until you see one in person. That plastic shell is really thick and inspires more confidence than you'd think. Imagine having cafe-level steam power at your command and a brew group that takes the same portafilters used in the World Barista Championship. Imagine being able to pull shot after shot while you master this craft and not wait for a boiler the size of a soda can to recharge every time. It may be an ugly little thing, but underneath it's got some serious commercial heritage that the Breville or CC1 cannot even touch. To me, knowing I was using the most professional tool available and not a wedding gift would outweigh its funky looks. You can always plaster it with band stickers. The Infuser uses a completely nonstandard PF size as well. Thanks, but no thanks. Don't be wooed by Breville's siren song. It looks lovely in your kitchen because that's what Breville is: a home appliance company. Nuova Simonelli doesn't care about aesthetics, they just wanted to bang out a NSF4-rated HX machine that could handle light cafe use, which is the Oscar. They're busy making 4 group machines costing tens of thousands of dollars while Breville makes blenders.

None of those features is absolutely necessary, but just keep in mind that these machines are for very light use. Breville is not held in high regard by our community, save for the Breville Dual Boiler, which is out of your price range. The CC1 is a really interesting little machine and I would recommend it to anyone who could not afford anything higher. I would probably rather have a CC1 than a Silvia.

Watch our video on the Oscar teardown, and go kick the tires on one at Seattle Coffee Gear or Simonelli's showroom down by the stadiums. Living in Seattle, you get great local support on Simonelli machines. And to drive home my sales pitch, my user avatar is a shot I pulled on my beloved Oscar before I gave it to my friend.

We are at a different level, it's true, but we desperately want to see you skip the heartache and headache of using toys when you could get your hands on a real piece of equipment that will make the journey easier.

Posted October 28, 2013 link

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greglepore
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 41
Location: se pa usa
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Oct 29, 2013, 12:53pm
Subject: Re: Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
 

I have had both machines. The Oscar served me well for eight years or so, and was bought used. It had its share of issues (mainly with leaking teflon hoses) and while user descaleable, its not a trivial undertaking. The plastic is nice, especially the new non shiny stuff (if anyone wants one, I have a brushed black cover never used somewhere in the shop if I can find it, free, just pay shipping). The pstat works. No vacuum breaker, but you can add one if you have no fear of plumbing. No timer, no preinfusion, takes a long while (1/2 hr) to reach stability.

I went with the BDB despite its "unreliable" reputation because for me preinfusion was a big deal, the pid controled group heater a bigger deal, and the temperature stability that implies even bigger deal. Throw in the timer, and game over, for me. I do miss the plumb in I had with the Oscar, and wish both machines had a plumbed drip tray, but oh well, and at least with the BDB you don't have to pull it out to fill it.

Yes,  you can certainly learn to water dance the Oscar or any other hx machine, but why? Yes, the technology of the hx machines is "proven", one could also say "old". Certainly, the Oscar is more simple and likely dependable than the BDB, but my experience, after many years is that the shots from the BDB are more consistent. I homeroast, have a real grinder, and am not a newbie.

If your number one concern is reliability, by all means you are taking somewhat of a chance with the BDB.  Many wise posters here will steer you away, without any particular axe to grind. But as someone who has actually owned both machines, I'd take a flyer on a new or refurb BDB at around a grand or so over an Oscar at the same price simply due to the ease of use and the relative preponderance of great shots by comparison. In car terms, its like an SMG or dual-clutch gearbox versus a nice 6 speed manual.
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,249
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Oct 29, 2013, 5:32pm
Subject: Re: Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
 

I am glad you like it and I wish you well with it. When you mention unreliable reputation and if you buy one your taking a chance thats doesn't sound reassuring. When you factor in that Brevilles prior attempts have been
pretty bad,that they are better known as a small appliance company,they rely heavily on electronics,and are made in China to many it then becomes a risk they dont feel like taking. There clearly appears to be
main stream espresso designs SBDU,DB AND HX of Italian origin and then there seems to be Breville.In as much as they share tasks as espresso makers they run as two parallel lines in the evolution
of machine design and execution. Its up to them to prove themselves and if they do then time will bestow on them the same golden heritage as the Italian ones,if not then oh well.


greglepore Said:

I have had both machines. The Oscar served me well for eight years or so, and was bought used. It had its share of issues (mainly with leaking teflon hoses) and while user descaleable, its not a trivial undertaking. The plastic is nice, especially the new non shiny stuff (if anyone wants one, I have a brushed black cover never used somewhere in the shop if I can find it, free, just pay shipping). The pstat works. No vacuum breaker, but you can add one if you have no fear of plumbing. No timer, no preinfusion, takes a long while (1/2 hr) to reach stability.

I went with the BDB despite its "unreliable" reputation because for me preinfusion was a big deal, the pid controled group heater a bigger deal, and the temperature stability that implies even bigger deal. Throw in the timer, and game over, for me. I do miss the plumb in I had with the Oscar, and wish both machines had a plumbed drip tray, but oh well, and at least with the BDB you don't have to pull it out to fill it.

Yes,  you can certainly learn to water dance the Oscar or any other hx machine, but why? Yes, the technology of the hx machines is "proven", one could also say "old". Certainly, the Oscar is more simple and likely dependable than the BDB, but my experience, after many years is that the shots from the BDB are more consistent. I homeroast, have a real grinder, and am not a newbie.

If your number one concern is reliability, by all means you are taking somewhat of a chance with the BDB.  Many wise posters here will steer you away, without any particular axe to grind. But as someone who has actually owned both machines, I'd take a flyer on a new or refurb BDB at around a grand or so over an Oscar at the same price simply due to the ease of use and the relative preponderance of great shots by comparison. In car terms, its like an SMG or dual-clutch gearbox versus a nice 6 speed manual.

Posted October 29, 2013 link

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jonr
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2013
Posts: 290
Location: Americas
Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 8:22am
Subject: Re: Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
 

greglepore Said:

you can certainly learn to water dance the Oscar or any other hx machine, but why? ... I'd take a flyer on a new or refurb BDB at around a grand or so over an Oscar at the same price simply due to the ease of use and the relative preponderance of great shots by comparison.

Posted October 29, 2013 link

Given a choice between better espresso with less hassle vs speculation about more repairs, I'd also take the former.
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JMFishtown
Senior Member
JMFishtown
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 38
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Compak K3 Touch
Drip: Aeropress, Espro Press
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 10:39am
Subject: Re: Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
 

So I'm just going to add my two cents here, feel free to take it or leave.  Also to get my 'bias' out there, I have had a BDB since last October, I bought an A model on sale from Williams-Sonoma and it ended up costing me a little under 1K.  I also want to say I take offense to the comment that infers anyone with a BDB is a noob who has no idea what he or she is doing. I have a compak k-3 touch grinder, which is more than adequate for espresso grinds, and most people on this forum have paired their BDB with a vario, also more than adequate.  There's no need to cast aspersions like that.

Now about the machine:

I am currently on my 3rd unit, which at face value sounds really bad, and it's a big reason there is so much anti-Breville rhetoric on this site. Let me take you slightly more in-depth when it comes to  my flux of units.

Unit 1- bought from store, had been sitting around for a while and came with an uncalibrated OPV so the machine blinded at 11.5 instead of 10.5, really not a big deal but I decided I wanted to have it replaced, which Breville did (with no argument, I might add)

Unit 2- Lasted for a full year before the pressure at the grouphead began dropping.  This is due to an o-ring design in the brew path that would degrade and create a partial blockage in the brew-path.  This issue was tested and resolved with a new design that utilized a flat gasket instead of an O-ring in the Breville BES900 XL/B model.

Unit 3 - Brand spanking new BES900 XL/b that Breville sent to me without any hassle or any question after I informed them of the issue.

In regards to the return process, the hassle is non-existant.  Breville places a 450 dollar hold on your credit card, they ship you a brand new (not refurbished) machine immediately. When it arrives you simply take the new one out, put the old one in the box that the new one was shipped in, and print out the Fedex label they email you and schedule a pickup. As soon as fedex picks it up they remove the hold.  you're never without your machine and it costs you nothing. In addition to that, customer service is INCREDIBLY helpful.  You speak with 1 person at Breville support, who is located in the United States, will give you a direct phone number, will you call you if you ask, will work with you via email, and is highly responsive.  It's absolutely the best customer service experience I've ever had with any large company.

Every single issue I have seen brought up in this forum or on the OZ forum has been addressed by Breville in the new /B model, which has been in production for about 6 months now and I have not seen a single issue anyone has had with a /B model. If you search my posts you'll see one in the bdb owners thread where I address the specific issues/fixes.

Anyway, that covers the reliability issue... As to performance, there's really nothing to say other than it creates bang on great espresso every time.  It is incredibly consistent, no cooling flush, no water dance, no waiting, just shot after shot after shot.

The brew boiler is NOT tiny as someone said before.  I have never encountered a situation where I've had to wait for the brew boiler to refill and reheat when I'm making shots. This includes 4 16 oz capps back to back to back to back.  The only situation I could imagine is if you're making large americanos, since the brew boiler also feeds the hot water tap, other than that, you will absolutely be slower than the machine in any home environment.

That's all I can think of for now.  In the end I highly recommend this machine, and it's been one of the best purchases I've ever made.
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,249
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:01pm
Subject: Re: Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
 

I really do wish you the best with your BDB. We have something in common more than a machine and that is the bean. I was having this same discussion with an employee at Sur La Table and he was in in love with espresso
and his BDB .I actually apologized for enumerating the many negatives about the BDB and we just talked coffee. I appreciate your honesty on being on machine number three. The only reason that I bring
it up is that people who are new and looking at the BDB need to be aware of the dismal past Breville has had,the many issues with the BDB and the fact that as of last notice they have no enduring track record.
Five years from now when owners come here and report daily use and still going strong I may agree with you but as of yet they have no track record.

JMFishtown Said:

So I'm just going to add my two cents here, feel free to take it or leave.  Also to get my 'bias' out there, I have had a BDB since last October, I bought an A model on sale from Williams-Sonoma and it ended up costing me a little under 1K.  I also want to say I take offense to the comment that infers anyone with a BDB is a noob who has no idea what he or she is doing. I have a compak k-3 touch grinder, which is more than adequate for espresso grinds, and most people on this forum have paired their BDB with a vario, also more than adequate.  There's no need to cast aspersions like that.

Now about the machine:

I am currently on my 3rd unit, which at face value sounds really bad, and it's a big reason there is so much anti-Breville rhetoric on this site. Let me take you slightly more in-depth when it comes to  my flux of units.

Unit 1- bought from store, had been sitting around for a while and came with an uncalibrated OPV so the machine blinded at 11.5 instead of 10.5, really not a big deal but I decided I wanted to have it replaced, which Breville did (with no argument, I might add)

Unit 2- Lasted for a full year before the pressure at the grouphead began dropping.  This is due to an o-ring design in the brew path that would degrade and create a partial blockage in the brew-path.  This issue was tested and resolved with a new design that utilized a flat gasket instead of an O-ring in the Breville BES900 XL/B model.

Unit 3 - Brand spanking new BES900 XL/b that Breville sent to me without any hassle or any question after I informed them of the issue.

In regards to the return process, the hassle is non-existant.  Breville places a 450 dollar hold on your credit card, they ship you a brand new (not refurbished) machine immediately. When it arrives you simply take the new one out, put the old one in the box that the new one was shipped in, and print out the Fedex label they email you and schedule a pickup. As soon as fedex picks it up they remove the hold.  you're never without your machine and it costs you nothing. In addition to that, customer service is INCREDIBLY helpful.  You speak with 1 person at Breville support, who is located in the United States, will give you a direct phone number, will you call you if you ask, will work with you via email, and is highly responsive.  It's absolutely the best customer service experience I've ever had with any large company.

Every single issue I have seen brought up in this forum or on the OZ forum has been addressed by Breville in the new /B model, which has been in production for about 6 months now and I have not seen a single issue anyone has had with a /B model. If you search my posts you'll see one in the bdb owners thread where I address the specific issues/fixes.

Anyway, that covers the reliability issue... As to performance, there's really nothing to say other than it creates bang on great espresso every time.  It is incredibly consistent, no cooling flush, no water dance, no waiting, just shot after shot after shot.

The brew boiler is NOT tiny as someone said before.  I have never encountered a situation where I've had to wait for the brew boiler to refill and reheat when I'm making shots. This includes 4 16 oz capps back to back to back to back.  The only situation I could imagine is if you're making large americanos, since the brew boiler also feeds the hot water tap, other than that, you will absolutely be slower than the machine in any home environment.

That's all I can think of for now.  In the end I highly recommend this machine, and it's been one of the best purchases I've ever made.

Posted October 30, 2013 link

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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,113
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 2:29pm
Subject: Re: Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
 

Iluvdabean Said:

The only reason that I bring it up is that people who are new and looking at the BDB need to be aware of the dismal past Breville has had,the many issues with the BDB and the fact that as of last notice they have no enduring track record.

Posted October 30, 2013 link

Very misleading.  A great many espresso machines have had serious problems with their roll out, including recently the Crossland CC1, La Spaziale S1 Dream, Rocket R58, Vibiemme Double Domobar, etc.

Few companies have handled the issues with as much grace or alacrity as Breville.  

It may not be the right machine for everyone, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion that the machine is unlikely to stand the test of time; but as far as I can determine there's no real basis for the reflexive, near-hysterical negativity you see from a few CG posters (for whatever reasons not present on HB).  

While there's no question that up until the BDB, Breville espresso machines were garbage, there's also no question that the BDB has -- at least so far -- been huge bang for the buck, and that Breville's support has been exemplary.  

Finally, let me make it very clear that I'm addressing the specific argument and not the poster himself.  Iluvdabean certainly has a lot to offer.  

BDL
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,249
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 5:15pm
Subject: Re: Breville Infuser, CC1 or Breville Double Boiler?
 

If you can find a track record for the BDB I would sure like to see it? There simply isnt one yet and the one they have, after many people being on three machines ,
isnt exactly what I would say is encouraging.What is encouraging is the no question switch policy. Thats nice. I would say the jury is still out.

boar_d_laze Said:

Very misleading.  A great many espresso machines have had serious problems with their roll out, including recently the Crossland CC1, La Spaziale S1 Dream, Rocket R58, Vibiemme Double Domobar, etc.

Few companies have handled the issues with as much grace or alacrity as Breville.  

It may not be the right machine for everyone, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion that the machine is unlikely to stand the test of time; but as far as I can determine there's no real basis for the reflexive, near-hysterical negativity you see from a few CG posters (for whatever reasons not present on HB).  

While there's no question that up until the BDB Breville espresso machines were garbage, there's also no question that the BDB has -- at least so far -- been huge bang for the buck, and that Breville's support has been exemplary.  

Finally, let me make it very clear that I'm addressing the specific argument and not the poster himself.  Iluvdabean certainly has a lot to offer.  

BDL

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