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New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
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ECM
Senior Member
ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Sun Jan 5, 2014, 8:37am
Subject: New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
 

Hellos All:

Iím hoping someone like Dave can help me sort out an issue that recently starting occurring with my new Vetrano 2B which was purchased about a month ago.

Thus far the machine has ben working flawlessly until about three days ago.  In a nut shell the Vetrano is not reaching the programmed temperature I have set for it in a timely manner.    

Typically I like to drink my coffee around 200 or 201 depending on the blend.  After setting a temperature of 200 the unit has no difficulty reaching and staying on the set temperature provided I donít pull a shot.  However, once I pull the first shot it takes way too long to  reach 200 again and often dips as low as 196.  Is this normal?  I wold hope not as the reason for buying such a machine is to take advantaged of its temperature stability.  

In thinking about it further I thought that: ďcould I have inadvertently changed a value for the Proportional, Integral or Derivative perimeters while trying to adjust the temperature or some other feature?  With that hypothesis is mind I set about to check my programmed numbers.  

PROPORTIONAL: = 1.5

INTEGRAL = 0.00 and 0.00

DERIVATIVE = 1.5

Now when I compare these figures with the figures in the manual I see that my INTEGRAL numbers DO NOT match the ones in the manual.  Naturally I went in and programmed the correct numbers for the INTEGRAL which are suppose to be I1=0.05 I2=0.0.   This resulted in no real change.

I then ran two separate readings.  In both cases only the brew boiler was operational.  

Ran 2oz through the machine and waited.  It took the Vetrano 2 minutes and fifty five seconds to rebound to the programmed 200f.
I then ran another 2 oz through and it took two minutes and fifteen seconds to rebound back to 200 but not before dipping as low as 196F!!
I then turned on both steam and brew boilers and allowed the unit to come up to temperature and sit idle for about ten minutes.  I then ran another 2oz through the group.  This time the digital read out dipped to 198 and it took it 2 minutes and forty five seconds to come back up to 200.                                            

When I look at the double gage on the front I see that when pulling a shot Iím hitting 9.5bars.  However the top gauge reads 0 but according to the digital read out the brew boiler pressure is reading 9.3.  I am assuming that the top gauge of the manual double gauge on the left side of the machine is to measure the steam boiler pressure?  This would make sense because when the steam boiler is up to temp the readout on the top portion of the gauge is in the green.  

Should I plan on calling the vender tomorrow to try and figure this out?  In the mean time I would appreciate any thoughts or help you can offer.  The thought of packing this up and giving it back to UPS to ship back for repairs is not something I want to do.  Unfortunately, there is no service centre in Halifax to do any repairs.  Can you tell me Ö is this behaviour normal?  I would hope not.  In fact I now it's not.  This unit use to stay right on temperature; only drifting a degree for about fifteen seconds before coming back to 200.  So what has changed?  

Thanks everyone,

Rob
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 621
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Sun Jan 5, 2014, 11:02am
Subject: Re: New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
 

If I do a 1 oz warming flush and a 2 oz draw mine will drop 2F. It takes over a minute for it to drop 2F and it warms back up to within 1F within a minute or so.

The algorithm seems more aggressive in 15 amp mode than it does 20 amp mode to me. If this is important to you, try using it in the 15 amp mode. I think you will notice that the heater stays on more in the 15 amp mode than it does in the 20 amp mode when your close to set point.
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ECM
Senior Member
ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Sun Jan 5, 2014, 11:40am
Subject: Re: New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
 

Hello DeanOK:

I figured you would respond.... thank you.  Here's the thing:

When I took ownership I had the retailer set the unit up for 20amp service.  When I took ownership I realized I had to run it in 15amp.  Therefore I went into the PID and set it to 15amp.  Would the fact that I switched it to 15amp be causing the issues I'm having?  In other words, do the P, I and D values have to be set up differently for 15amp verses 20amp?  I would think not but who knows.  

Having said all this in reality after pulling a shot the Vetrano does come back to 200F after 2.5 -2.45 minutes.  By time one knocks out the spent puck, wipes out the PF, and doses for another double espresso it's doubtful this sequence of actions could be accomplished under the three minute mark.  Basically unless I have baskets lined up that have been dosed ahead of time the whole temperature issue is really not an issue.  

Are you in 20amp or 15?  As I said I'm in 15 so I'm not sure if that plays a part in the figures I'm seeing.  I think I'm going to call the vender tomorrow just to check if this is normal behaviour in 15amp mode.  

Rob
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Sun Jan 5, 2014, 12:08pm
Subject: Re: New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
 

Call your vendor's service department tomorrow; find out if you have a problem; and if you do, work through it with them.

I don't know what's normal for your machine, but have pulled a few shots through a few V2Bs as part of going to peoples' homes and teaching them how to "dial in" and otherwise use their setups, and 2:30 - 3:00 seems like an excessively long recovery time.  If memory serves, 1:00 - 1:30 was more like it.  

In any case, you bought support when you bought the machine.  Might as well use it.

BDL
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Tonyv138
Senior Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 64
Location: tx
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: V2B
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Posted Sun Jan 5, 2014, 12:54pm
Subject: Re: New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
 

My notes from the past research...

The factory settings for V2B. If I recall correctly one of the settings in the manual was not correct, but not sure, it has been a while

F01 = F
F02 = 4 Brew Boiler Priority
P1 = 1.5
I1 = 0.00
D1 = 1.5
B1 = 10

P2 = 1.5
I2 = 0.00
D2 = 1.5
B2 = 6.0
T1 = 203
T2 = 255
E1 = 27
E2 = 0


DaveC recomended settings:

F01 controls F/C, F02 controls 20a vs 15a. F04=4 is 15a operation

F01 = C
F02 = 6 (both boilers operational) or 3 is brew boiler off and I can't remember what alternate boiler operation is I think it's 4).
P1 = 1.7 (perhaps 1.8-2.0 for the use version in alternate boiler operation)
I1 = 0.04
D1 = 7.5
B1 = 10

P2 = 3.0
I2 = 0.00
D2 = 5.0
B2 = 5.0
T1 = 94
T2 = 124
E1 = 11
E2 = 0
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ECM
Senior Member
ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Sun Jan 5, 2014, 3:58pm
Subject: Re: New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
 

Thank you everyone I will be calling my vender tomorrow to see if there is anything that can be done without shipping it back.  I suspect that it's just a matter of changing some things in the PID.

Thanks again,

Rob
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sharky
Senior Member
sharky
Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 176
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Compak K3 Touch
Posted Sun Jan 5, 2014, 9:17pm
Subject: Re: New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
 

Tonyv138 Said:

My notes from the past research...

The factory settings for V2B. If I recall correctly one of the settings in the manual was not correct, but not sure, it has been a while

F01 = F
F02 = 4 Brew Boiler Priority
P1 = 1.5
I1 = 0.00
D1 = 1.5
B1 = 10

P2 = 1.5
I2 = 0.00
D2 = 1.5
B2 = 6.0
T1 = 203
T2 = 255
E1 = 27
E2 = 0


DaveC recomended settings:

F01 controls F/C, F02 controls 20a vs 15a. F04=4 is 15a operation

F01 = C
F02 = 6 (both boilers operational) or 3 is brew boiler off and I can't remember what alternate boiler operation is I think it's 4).
P1 = 1.7 (perhaps 1.8-2.0 for the use version in alternate boiler operation)
I1 = 0.04
D1 = 7.5
B1 = 10

P2 = 3.0
I2 = 0.00
D2 = 5.0
B2 = 5.0
T1 = 94
T2 = 124
E1 = 11
E2 = 0

Posted January 5, 2014 link



Tonyv138, are those settings for a 15a or a 20a machine??   Dave's numbers are significantly different than the factory settings?  Any reason why . . . ??
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Tonyv138
Senior Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 64
Location: tx
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: V2B
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Posted Mon Jan 6, 2014, 9:45am
Subject: Re: New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
 

Sharky,
As I understand these are for 20A mode and were derived by Dave after significant experementation (DaveC perhaps you want to comment). These were published by Dave in the V2B monster thread. Also, there are comments on the possible differences required for 15A.
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ECM
Senior Member
ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Mon Jan 6, 2014, 4:34pm
Subject: Re: New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
 

Just an update:

Called the vender today.  Basically I was first advised to tighten up the expansion valve but this did not seem to have any effect on the brew temperature stability.  I then spent most of the afternoon experimenting with the P1 and P2 values.  The P1 value is for the brew boiler and the P2 is for the steam boiler.  I basically went all the way up to 10 and slowly worked my way back.  The entire process took about three hours because it required that I pull 2oz of water and then wait for the unit to cycle two times before I could get an accurate reading.  Long story short ... I now have my P1 which is brew boiler set to 3 instead of the recommended 1.5.  Literally, setting the P1 to 3.1 caused it to overshoot up past my set point of 200 up to 201.  My new P1 setting allows the veteran to recover from a 2oz shot in about 1.30-150 seconds.  I'm tole by the vender tech that this is a normal response from the PID.  after the Vetrano has ben idle following a shot for one complete on and off cycle it takes between 40-1:00 seconds to rebound to the set 200F.  Again I'm told that this too is a normal response time.  

The only thing that bothers me is the fact that it takes between 1:30-1:50 for the Vetrano to recover after pulling a shot.  Also it will dip down to 198 for about 70 seconds or so before climbing back up.  Are others here getting similar results?  I guess that's as good as I'm going to get it?

One final question:

After tightening up the expansion valve I am now getting readings of 10.50-11.00 bars of pressure at the group when a PF with a blank is inserted.  Is this pressure too high... should I open it up again and wrench it back a bit?  From what I understand it should be between 9.5 and 10?  

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks again folks,

Rob
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CurtG
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Posts: 25
Location: San Diego
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill V2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Hario Nouveau Syphon
Posted Mon Jan 6, 2014, 6:43pm
Subject: Re: New Vetrano 2B Temperature Stability Problem - Help?
 

I also played with the PID settings a bit.  You can see my results from back then here.  I'm back to the Chris Coffee settings now.  I've found that "I" works fine set to 0 for me.  Because the brew boiler is small, insulated, and has a relatively strong heater, we don't need very aggressive PID settings to keep it stable.  Oh, and stable means "within one degree of the set point".  The PID seems to only know the actual display temp, not any sort of fractions (to be expected since that is the definition of 1 degree resolution).  "P" applies proportional heating power to the boiler based on how far below the set point the water is.  Raise it until you see your temp overshoot your set point at idle.  Then, lower it back so that doesn't happen again.  If the temp overshoots, it tends to take much more time to come back down and you get an oscillation through 3 or more degrees at idle (I tried to set mine up to run a little below the set point, mostly at the set point, and a little above, but I tended to get overshoots to 2 degrees above).  If it doesn't overshoot, it will just oscillate between the set point and one degree F below at idle.  You would think that you want to give it a lot of power to get back to temp after it dips, but it's much harder to control the temp that way (think driving your car so the wheel at an exact spot only using full throttle and the brake).  "I" can be 0 since "I" is used to give a bit of boost to the temp when "P" alone in a normal PID setup would oscillate around a measurement a bit lower than the set point.  But, in our setup, even with a resolution of 1 degree F, it will easily idle within a degree (set point and one degree below set point).

I believe Dave came upon different optimum settings for the UK because he is running higher voltages there.  The PID (well, the heaters actually) will just behave differently due to that factor alone.

Now, none of this answers your issue about speed back to set point, ECM.  I will try to take a closer look at my system tomorrow morning to see what the speed is there.  I can say that going down that amount is fine, but I'm with you wondering why it takes 2 minutes to get back.  Can you tell us how long the machine was on before you started running these tests?

Finally, for the dual manometer (gauge), the top measurement is steam pressure generated by the steam only, which should be 0 when the steam boiler is off.  Bottom measurement, as you know, is brew pressure generated by the pump.
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