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Dual Boiler VS HX  (Quickmill DB,Expobar, Vibiemme ) for a commercial applicatio
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Dual Boiler VS...  
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laythss
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 49
Location: California
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M23
Grinder: La Cimbali junior
Posted Wed Jan 22, 2014, 1:32pm
Subject: Dual Boiler VS HX  (Quickmill DB,Expobar, Vibiemme ) for a commercial applicatio
 

Hi all,
Dual boiler, vs HX machines have been discussed in many different ways and now i ask about them in a bit of a different way.
We own a coffee shop in Saudi Arabia, and we want to expand it a bit by catering to events and such. Lets call this testing the waters. and it will be easy for us to sell a used $1200-$2000 used espresso machine but nothing that is more expensive in case the waters turn mucky.
important things for us in the machines :
1- quality of espresso/steamed milk producted
2- good looking machine since it will be displayed in places that require that.
3- reliability (as much as we can get from a semi-commercial machine)

the big question is: since we are choosing a semi-commercial machine , would a DB or an HX machine be able to handle to production better, both in the sense of reliability as well as the amount of cups that might be made within 20 minutes before the machine would get too cold and we would need for it to heat up to start producing espresso, or good steam again.

We are still looking  but at the moment the options seem to be between a
Quick Mill Dual Boiler QM67 Espresso Machine
for the double boiler

and one of these for the HX
Quickmill Anita Espresso Machine
Expobar Lever Semi-Auto Espresso Machine
Vibiemme Domobar Super Commercial Espresso Machine

Any comments are apriciated.

Layth
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,335
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Wed Jan 22, 2014, 6:49pm
Subject: Re: Dual Boiler VS HX
 

The problem with catering -- as opposed to a shop, pub or a cart -- is that the drink orders come all at once.  When dinner's done, clients want their drinks NOW.  

The machines you've listed are all too small and light-duty to handle a catering crush.  The Domobar could handle a party of eight pretty easily.  The others could handle six, if only two or three wanted lattes.

If you're pulling shots and making milk drinks for a crowd, you want something with a big boiler and/or very quick recovery.  You might even want a 2 group.

DBs put less strain on barista skills, but when operated by someone competent that's no big deal.  DBs are the trend in the US, but HXs are still the world (and Italian) standard.  They're also considerably more bang for the buck.  

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER  

BDL
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,870
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Jan 23, 2014, 6:34am
Subject: Re: Dual Boiler VS HX
 

There is not much more to add to BDL's post.

The vast majority of the installed base of commercial machines is HX. DB is making inroads. Both can produce excellent espresso.

Service to your machine is more important than brand, when you need service, you need it now, not in 3 weeks for a parts order.

Yep, the machines are a bit small for what you intend to do.

A MINIMUM of a 2.5 L boiler is what I would be looking at, such as my home machine M32 Bistro  or yours M21 as far as that goes. Even then for a large rush the single group will add a lot of time to drink production.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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onthego
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onthego
Joined: 3 Jul 2005
Posts: 231
Location: Anchorage, AK
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Salvatore One Black, Silvia...
Grinder: Macap M4 Stepless, Rocky DL,...
Drip: Krups
Posted Thu Jan 23, 2014, 12:30pm
Subject: Re: Dual Boiler VS HX
 

laythss Said:

Hi all,
Dual boiler, vs HX machines have been discussed in many different ways and now i ask about them in a bit of a different way.
We own a coffee shop in Saudi Arabia, and we want to expand it a bit by catering to events and such. Lets call this testing the waters. and it will be easy for us to sell a used $1200-$2000 used espresso machine but nothing that is more expensive in case the waters turn mucky.
important things for us in the machines :
1- quality of espresso/steamed milk producted
2- good looking machine since it will be displayed in places that require that.
3- reliability (as much as we can get from a semi-commercial machine)

the big question is: since we are choosing a semi-commercial machine , would a DB or an HX machine be able to handle to production better, both in the sense of reliability as well as the amount of cups that might be made within 20 minutes before the machine would get too cold and we would need for it to heat up to start producing espresso, or good steam again.

We are still looking  but at the moment the options seem to be between a
Quick Mill Dual Boiler QM67 Espresso Machine
for the double boiler

and one of these for the HX
Quickmill Anita Espresso Machine
Expobar Lever Semi-Auto Espresso Machine
Vibiemme Domobar Super Commercial Espresso Machine

Any comments are apriciated.

Layth

Posted January 22, 2014 link

None of the machines on your list are certified for commercial applications, i.e. they do not have UL, CE, ETL and NSF certification for commercial use.  Not sure how things work in your area but I would want those certifications if I were setting up shop here at home.  They are all semi-commercial design using unit body construction.  They are not built on a steel chassis like commercial machines.  In the home that is OK because they do not have to stand up to the wear and tear of being moved frequently.  The only machine in your price range that I can think of that is an actual commercial machine with the necessary certifications is the NS Oscar.  It is built on a steel chassis, employs commercial grade components and has a large 2.3L boiler.  That would be my choice for your intended use.  It can also be purchased new for about half the cost of the other machines on your list.

Since your list consists entirely of machines having polished stainless exterior and e61 brew group I am guessing that the Oscar will not meet your needs.  This machine has the certifications for commercial use click here But like the ones on your list is built for use in the home and seems small for what you would like it to do.  

This machine should satisfy your needs click here It is more expensive but it is designed for commercial use and it has the look you are going for.  

Good luck.
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1stline
Senior Member
1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 498
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Thu Jan 23, 2014, 3:53pm
Subject: Re: Dual Boiler VS HX
 

boar_d_laze Said:

The problem with catering -- as opposed to a shop, pub or a cart -- is that the drink orders come all at once.  When dinner's done, clients want their drinks NOW.  

The machines you've listed are all too small and light-duty to handle a catering crush.  The Domobar could handle a party of eight pretty easily.  The others could handle six, if only two or three wanted lattes.

If you're pulling shots and making milk drinks for a crowd, you want something with a big boiler and/or very quick recovery.  You might even want a 2 group.

DBs put less strain on barista skills, but when operated by someone competent that's no big deal.  DBs are the trend in the US, but HXs are still the world (and Italian) standard.  They're also considerably more bang for the buck.  

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER  

BDL

Posted January 22, 2014 link

We would agree. We actually use the Vibiemme HX machines (each with a 2.45 liter boiler) for offsite catering on the weekends. We usually bring 2 of these at 110 volts to service up to 200 people (mostly cappuccino and latte) in a 2 hour window. From here you can do the math on per hour servings based on machine watts, boiler size, etc.

Important factors to remember...

a) Voltage - going with 220 volts will make the units more efficient in recovery.
b) Boiler size - most important as this is where the delays occur from frothing milk. Larger size means more capacity. Double boilers, in most high demand cases, are less efficient for frothing for catering events.
c) Reservoir capacity - less refilling and usually needed. Flojet pumps with 5 gallon reservoirs can work, but sometimes they burn out and more things to bring along.
d) Transport size
e) Durability to sustain in transport - these things can get banked up
f) Back up - always bring 1 back up as 1 machine can always go down during an offsite catering event.

Grinder - minimum Super Jolly or higher.

We hope this helps.

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
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kennyrsmith
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Posts: 11
Location: Kentucky, USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Dalla Corte Mini
Grinder: Mahlkonig Pro M/Baratza...
Posted Mon Jan 27, 2014, 8:25pm
Subject: Re: Dual Boiler VS HX  (Quickmill DB,Expobar, Vibiemme )
 

If you can swing it, the Nuova Simonelli Appia is a fantastic catering machine. The single group runs on 110V but it is built internally very similar to an aurelia and the like. They keep up super well for a single group in high-volume situations. The steam wand is also a lot more powerful than most of the machines you have listed but super easy to get micro foam on. Depending on where you buy it, they can be had for $2500 or so if you look around. NS also gives you a 2 year parts warranty which is pretty inviting
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,335
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Mon Jan 27, 2014, 10:12pm
Subject: Re: Dual Boiler VS HX  (Quickmill DB,Expobar, Vibiemme )
 

kennyrsmith Said:

The single group runs on 110V, but...

Posted January 27, 2014 link

The OP is in Saudi Arabia, which is in the process of switching from 117V to 230V, so 110V may not be the advantage there that it is here.    

Based on less than thorough acquaintance with either machine, I think the Aurelia and Appia aren't all that much alike.  But the Appia's an excellent machine in its own right, and I know a lot of smart people who are very high on it for catering.  

As long as we're talking about machines out of the OP's stated price range...

The Appia, and the Elektra T1 are each good single groups for the OP's purposes, each rated for commerce, but both are line only and require a Flojet + jugs for cart or catering.  

The Cimbali M21 Jr. is only 2.5L but it's got super-fast steam recovery.  You'd almost think it was a 6L -- almost.   Unlike the NS and Elektra, Cimbali makes a reservoir fed variant of their commercial 1 group, the M21 "S."  I've never used an "S," but have used the line M21s a lot.  IMO, the M21 DT/1 Casa is as good a single group machine as anything at any price -- but I've never used it in a high-demand situation.  

There are other commercial 1 groups in the same class as those three, but other than the Faema Classic, I don't them well enough to start listing.  My ignorance further extends to which country provides the most advantageous buying opportunities for a machine destined for Saudi, so that means I don't know the prices either.  You can't make a knowledgeable recommendation for a commercial enterprise without knowing the prices.

Depending on what sort of venues the OP's shop caters and on how it transports equipment, a cart setup might be best in any case.  

1st Line's suggestion of two (at least) 2.5L, reservoir machines sounds pretty good to me for pure catering.  The rest of 1st Line's post was -- no surprise -- damn good as well.    

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER

BDL
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stewjacks
Senior Member


Joined: 16 May 2013
Posts: 21
Location: MTL
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Feb 7, 2014, 6:35pm
Subject: Re: Dual Boiler VS HX  (Quickmill DB,Expobar, Vibiemme )
 

There's a Gaggia TE at 1st-Line that could be interesting if you want a single group, though again it's 110V.
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