Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Espresso Machines
HX or Dual Boiler for low volume steamer
Learn @seattlecoffeegear
Learn all about coffee, watch videos, read how-to articles.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > HX or Dual...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Author Messages
musicphanmike
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 2
Location: Midwest
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sun Feb 23, 2014, 5:34pm
Subject: HX or Dual Boiler for low volume steamer
 

Hello All!

Long time coffeegeek with a new ID.  After 10-12 years Ms. Silvia is coming to her last days so I'm looking for the next new love.  I'm looking to step up to a dual boiler or HX machine and need some advise on which type of boiler to select.  I primarily drink cold drinks/and or straight espresso.  I would say on average two double shots per day each morning, maybe a few extra more on weekends depending on guests, etc.  Maybe only one day a month I steam milk to make a hot drink.  I could see that increasing a bit more when I get a nice machine that can froth similar to a pro machine.  But overall I have a low volume of steam needs - is that too little use for a dual boiler?  I'm concerned about the water sitting in the boiler for that long... certainly I would flush the machine a shot or two but I don't want to have to flush out a large portion of the boiler since it will not be plumbed in.  The cost difference is not necessarily a huge issue.  Any suggestions on which way to go?

TIA - Mike
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,320
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Sun Feb 23, 2014, 10:53pm
Subject: Re: HX or Dual Boiler for low volume steamer
 

You don't understand the difference between an HX and a DB.  The DB design doesn't make for better steam performance, nor does it mean more or less flushing to keep the water in the boiler(s) fresh.  

Those things are more dependent on the individual machine and your tolerance for stale water and steam, than on the basic design.  Counting steam and water, I use or flush about 700cl of my HX boiler's (2.5L) volume every day, and that's more than enough.  

Frequent emptying, cleaning (with soap and hot water), and refilling an espresso machine's reservoir with good quality water is just part of making good coffee and part of basic sanitation as well. So is emptying and cleaning the drip tray.  

People get very defensive about this.  I know there are people who don't refill their reservoirs more than once a week, but if you went into a restaurant and they told you they kept their water sitting in a pot for a week before using it to cook, would you eat there?

Budget really does matter.  If yours is unlimited, then say so.  If not, say that.  Either way, it will help people who want to help you if you could come up with some sort of number.  

Machines
Since your steaming load is so light, and if you do have a budget, you might consider a hybrid like the Crossland CC1, or the Quick Mill Silvano.  Both machines are very friendly, and will pull a good cup of coffee once you've got your barista skills down.  The CC1 is a barely adequate steamer, and the Silvano is a heart beat better.

Good, full-size, prosumer HXs start at around $1500 and go up from there to around $2400.  There are a lot of choices, too many to even begin picking out the standouts unless you're really interested.  The next step in HXs is a true commercial single-group machine; those start at $3K.

Good, full size prosumer DBs start at around $2000, and go up to around $3K.  The least expensive true commercial DB is the La Marzocco which costs around $6000 after the negotiation's done.

On the other hand, the BDB is not prosumer build quality but is a very high performing and easy to use DB.  The new version, the 920 has an MAP of $1300 in the US, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't get it for at least 10% off.  

Almost anything which can be temped is going to be a HUGE improvement over your Silvia.    

IMO, the four best values in espresso machines at different price points are:
  1. CC1, $700;
  2. Breville 920, $1300 (I've never used a 920, but have used its predecessor the 900 enough to have been totally wowed by its versatility and user (especially noob) friendliness.  Machines don't get easier;
    C Bezzera Strega, $2000.  It's a lever with a heat exchanger and a pump.  Everyone who has one loves, loves, loves them.  It's reputed to pull as good a shot as anything on the market; but, to be honest, it's a machine I haven't tried myself and am just passing along the buzz; and
  3. La Cimbali M21 "Casa," $3000.  The recommendation is for the Casa version only, which includes pre-infusion. (All of the M21s are excellent value, but none as much as the Casa.)  Like most commercial machines, it's plumb-in only.  I've owned mine for more than three years and wouldn't trade it for anything I know of which costs less than $10K, and then I'd only be really trading for the status.  The Casa is as good as a single group machine gets.  

Let me add, that just because a machine is a huge value doesn't necessarily make it the right machine for you or even the best machine in its general class.  Bang for the buck vs bang.

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER

Things which go BOOM
A better grinder is the most bang you can get, for the buck or otherwise, when it comes to improving your espresso with an equipment upgrade.  By way of example (and not a recommendation in any sense) a QM Anita with a Compak K-10 PB -- $1600 machine + $1400 grinder -- will pull a much better cup than a Rocket R58 with a Vario -- $2700 machine + $450 grinder.    

Lots to think about,
Rich
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,864
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Mon Feb 24, 2014, 7:03am
Subject: Re: HX or Dual Boiler for low volume steamer
 

With the information given in the  post, there is not much if anything to add to Riches post,

Honestly if all you plan to make 95% of the time is straight shots, a PID added to Sylvia may be the best route, it will even out the temp swings and give you more control over the shots while still having a little steaming ability for the occasional milk drink. I say that only because when compared to a HX or DB, Sylvia has a lot less available steam.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
musicphanmike
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 2
Location: Midwest
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:38pm
Subject: Re: HX or Dual Boiler for low volume steamer
 

Hi and thanks..

Regarding HX & DB... from my understanding the primary difference between the two is steam recovery time, HX models have slower recovery time.  Since I have low steam needs, I would most likely shut off the steam boiler in a DB situation.  I was wondering if there was more or less any other considerations other than 'stale water' to consider when strictly considering boiler design.  From my understanding the HX utilizing a single boiler and reserve which for my situation may be a better solution.  I.E. less stale water since there is less to flush.

I have other criteria established (E-61, PID's, Plumb option, No Burn, etc.) but was really just trying to get suggestions on boiler design.   Budget is flexible... $1500-2500 and yes the options are endless....

Thanks - Mike
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,864
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Feb 25, 2014, 6:37am
Subject: Re: HX or Dual Boiler for low volume steamer
 

No, you do not understand correctly, neither have a steam recovery time. Both are ready for steam all the time. In a DB this is done with a seperate boiler that is at steam temp all the time. With a HX, the boiler is at steam temp all the time and a seperate chamber or tube running through the boiler heats the brew water. Both are 100 % steam 100% of the time. Only a SBDU needs a recovery time.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > HX or Dual...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Find the Right Machine...
Package deals on the best machines from Izzo, Quick Mill, Rocket, La Marzocco & more.
www.clivecoffee.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.297204971313)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+